Can diesel units couple with electric units?

[LiftFan]

I know these units are incompatible, but on the South Western routes it would be useful as extra traction to link up some 159s with a 444 which could disconnect at the last major stop before the juice dries up when the 159s head to Salisbury and beyond. However it's completely impossible...

 

[driver_m]

Not this again(!)

It's not as simple as that. You can couple Voyagers mechanically to 390s and 222s if you want to, but - certainly XC examples, anyway - will not couple electrically. They have different setups and TMS software.

Someone has suggested VT modified their 221s to have a different software - I can't disprove the suggestion but I find it unlikely. One for the VT guys on here, I would think.

It's been tried as you can see in that video. It can happen, but they can't electrically couple and in practice seemed to cause more problems than solutions. We've had the TMS discussions many times on here and they are different TMS systems. I dont think we could even drive a XC 221 now. Maybe they could couple together fully with some effort but that isn't likely to happen as there isn't the need or the will . Current policy is either use DRS 57, do a side by side rescue to get passengers off, or try and get the train to limp to a point where it can be took out of service .The only likely train to train rescue you'd see would be 221 to 221.

 

[James James]

I know these units are incompatible, but on the South Western routes it would be useful as extra traction to link up some 159s with a 444 which could disconnect at the last major stop before the juice dries up when the 159s head to Salisbury and beyond. However it's completely impossible...

The widespread availability of fast couplers, and push pull... makes me think it's almost a good time to bring back locos. Have permanently coupled consists of carriages (with DT[S/F]O's on each end), use an electric loco push the train until you get to the end of the electrical network where a diesel is waiting, decouple the electric loco (and perhaps even a batch of carriages, you could have multiple 2+ car consists forming one train after all), and the diesel can pull the train the rest of the way. Then, the diesel pushes the consist back to meet an electric loco again.

Or maybe just keep the EMU's, but add push-pull compatible diesel loco's to take over on the non-electrified sections. Which would of course necessitate some work to have compatible control systems...

Won't ever happen of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or maybe just keep the EMU's, but add push-pull compatible diesel loco's to take over on the non-electrified sections. Which would of course necessitate some work to have compatible control systems...

This sort of worked with the Pendolinos, but if both were new build I expect it would work fairly well. After all the 33s, REPs and TCs worked well.

 

[edwin_m]

The widespread availability of fast couplers, and push pull... makes me think it's almost a good time to bring back locos. Have permanently coupled consists of carriages (with DT[S/F]O's on each end), use an electric loco push the train until you get to the end of the electrical network where a diesel is waiting, decouple the electric loco (and perhaps even a batch of carriages, you could have multiple 2+ car consists forming one train after all), and the diesel can pull the train the rest of the way. Then, the diesel pushes the consist back to meet an electric loco again.

Or maybe just keep the EMU's, but add push-pull compatible diesel loco's to take over on the non-electrified sections. Which would of course necessitate some work to have compatible control systems...

Won't ever happen of course.

That was the system used for many years for the Weymouth services before electrification - a 4-REP unit pushed the unpowered 4-TC set from Waterloo to Bournemouth where a 33 was attached at the other end, pushing back to Bournemouth to attach to the EMU again. Various people have suggested it (or more accurately the diesel haulage of a dead EMU) as an alternative to bi-mode for the 80x units, but I think whatever the merits of that argument it's been lost now.

 

[pdeaves]

They can!

Interesting that the Pendolino still has a pantograph up. To supply 'hotel' power, maybe?

 

[PeterC]

The widespread availability of fast couplers, and push pull... makes me think it's almost a good time to bring back locos. Have permanently coupled consists of carriages (with DT[S/F]O's on each end), use an electric loco push the train until you get to the end of the electrical network where a diesel is waiting, decouple the electric loco (and perhaps even a batch of carriages, you could have multiple 2+ car consists forming one train after all), and the diesel can pull the train the rest of the way. Then, the diesel pushes the consist back to meet an electric loco again.

Won't ever happen of course.

Locos? Too 20th century, how about "modularising" units with separate accomodation and power modules? Now that would be 21st century.

 

[JohnElliott]

I seem to remember that at one time there was a train in the evening peak out of Waterloo in later B.R. days that split at Basingstoke with the EMU portion running on towards Southampton & the DEMU portion continuing to Salisbury. I hope my memory is not playing tricks; can anyone shed more light on this?

All the sources I've seen say 33+4TC+8VEP.

 

[davetheguard]

All the sources I've seen say 33+4TC+8VEP.

Yes a 33+4TC rather than an DEMU would make a lot of sense. Good to hear that others have heard of a combined electric & diesel working, and that my memory's not going completely bonkers!

 

[Highlandspring]

Sorry to drag up an old thread but it’s perhaps worth recording here that 390127 was hauled by 221114 from Law Junction to Polmadie depot today after being stranded overnight by damage to the overhead wires. It took a couple of hours to set up the Pendolino to be hauled, I was told that apparently over 40 isolating cocks had to be operated to get air into it.

 

[driver_m]

Sorry to drag up an old thread but it’s perhaps worth recording here that 390127 was hauled by 221114 from Law Junction to Polmadie depot today after being stranded overnight by damage to the overhead wires. It took a couple of hours to set up the Pendolino to be hauled, I was told that apparently over 40 isolating cocks had to be operated to get air into it.

Just read this on wnxx. Sounds about right. Must have been an absolute last resort to have to do it if there wasn't a 57 about and couldn't even do a side by side rescue with the 221 .

 

[Highlandspring]

The passengers were evacuated by a side-by-side transfer the night before. The Pendolino was totally electrically dead so had to be hauled. The days of Virgin having a thunderbird loco at Polmadie are long gone.

 

[driver_m]

The passengers were evacuated by a side-by-side transfer the night before. The Pendolino was totally electrically dead so had to be hauled. The days of Virgin having a thunderbird loco at Polmadie are long gone.

Is Carlisle the furthest north one gets posted? 57s at our end are usually sat at Crewe and Rugby. I'll keep counsel on my own personal opinion on what should happen though.

 

[superkev]

There are 3 possible methods of coupling.
1. Full compatibility and multiple working.
2. Mechanical with only air but no electrical connections electrical box retracted so no multiple working.
3. Mechanical only with no air or electrical connections with the electrical box retracted unit dragged unbraked at reduced speed.
Perhaps someone in the know will enlighten us with some examples.
Saddest thing about privatisation to me was how almost nothing couples to other classes.
Latest own goal I understand is the new 331s don't couple even mechanically to the existing 333s. Northern presumably run by over promoted clerks.
K

 

[43096]

Saddest thing about privatisation to me was how almost nothing couples to other classes.

It started well before privatisation.