South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Bletchleyite]

Light rail derived vehicles would not be able to go faster than today's speed limits. They are likely to have better acceleration and braking though so could probably reach maximum more quickly from a start and sustain it for longer approaching the next stop. Stops might also be marginally briefer, at least at the more minor stations.

Potentially stops could even be on request on the bus model, though I *think* Sheffield is the only current UK tramway that operates in that way, assuming that still does?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Potentially stops could even be on request on the bus model, though I *think* Sheffield is the only current UK tramway that operates in that way, assuming that still does?

forget about 40 minute journey times then

 

[Gareth Marston]

Here's some of the comments from Walesonline

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/rail-passengers-wales-could-soon-14411690

3 hours ago
Nantyreira
Bit early for an April Fool.
The people who dreamt this idea up need sacking NOW.

5 hours ago
Siadwell
On match days and weekend nights out with no toilets? The train will become the toilet. Trams are for local journeys in and around cities and NOT for commutes into the city. Pointless investing in facilities on the stations as they'll get vandalised by the underclass.

Mountymike
No electrification no toilets , how about open air carriages and gruel in the buffet car , must be Brexit cuts

[/QUOTE]
If they do away with the toilets, where are the fare dodgers going to hide?
[/QUOTE]

5 hours ago
NJN
The last train of the evening is going to be a long slow journey, with ten-minute comfort stops every twenty minutes. Will the operator accept responsibility for taxi fares for those who are still in the loo when the train departs?

and my favorite

16 hours ago
Simoncorkswill
Clearly this is what Eddie Jones was refering too .

 

[gareth950]

Carwyn Jones and Ken Skates will be leaving one hell of a public transport legacy in Cardiff & the Valleys for their successors to be defending at the 2021 Assembly elections.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Another spin my spin story from Sion Berry @ Walesonline.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/busin...er-passenger-compensation-rules-late-14422438

do we see the seeds of the excuse making plan in this

The new franchise is also expected to see an increase from one to two services an hour to Ebbw Vale, where longer-term the aim is to still deliver four an hour.

However, the line to Ebbw Vale will remain a non devolved section of track under the control of Network Rail, although the Welsh Government continues to press for the entire rail network in Wales to be devolved.

The good Welsh Government (Labour) want to provide extra services everywhere but the nasty Westminster Government (Conservative) wont give us the power over Network Rail to achieve this. I'm expecting this narrative to increasingly unfold over the coming weeks/months.

 

[Dai Corner]

Another spin my spin story from Sion Berry @ Walesonline.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/busin...er-passenger-compensation-rules-late-14422438

do we see the seeds of the excuse making plan in this



The good Welsh Government (Labour) want to provide extra services everywhere but the nasty Westminster Government (Conservative) wont give us the power over Network Rail to achieve this. I'm expecting this narrative to increasingly unfold over the coming weeks/months.

Conveniently forgetting that the WG asked NR to start the partial redoubling of the Ebbw Vale branch but later told them to abandon the work.

 

[Envoy]

Looks like the saga of Cardiff’s Bus Station is going to drag on and on ...
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/design-cardiffs-new-bus-station-14501625

The council was also asked to provide a detailed explanation of the timetable for the project including when the plans will go to a committee, when work on the site will begin, be completed and a new facility open.

A council spokesman replied: “Following the council’s announcement last week the developer will now be delivering the bus station with Welsh Government.

“An announcement on the scheme and the delivery approach will be made in due course.

“No architects have yet been appointed but the council has been fully reimbursed for design costs in taking the scheme to full planning permission.”

 

[Envoy]

Meanwhile - over on the south-west side of Cardiff Central Station - more information has been released about the plans for this land. I note that Penarth Road is to have only one lane of traffic each way. (I would have thought it essential to have two lanes each way). Anyway, the plans show trams running through the area - so presumably they reckon that fewer cars will be traversing this part of the city)? Also note the fact that only a THREE space coach station is to be provided for the likes of National Express etc. It seems to me that Rightacres are all about maximising the profit that can be made from jamming in as many high buildings as possible. Note the lack of a wide riverside boulevard. It would also appear that the piazza linking the retained Brain’s building with the river, will have a residential block on the southern side - thus blocking out warming rays from the sun. However, some of the features are highly commendable - such as the idea of having a ‘Market Hall’.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/new-pictures-show-how-huge-14500754

The plans show trams at its heart. The design includes those but is not bound by them and designers say they want to “future-proof” the design for any Metro project if confirmed.

For those interested, you can find more detailed information by clicking the following link and then selecting PDF 0002 Design & Access - where you will also see possible metro routes marked for this area south of the Central Station. It is regrettable that Media Wales did not provide this link in order that the public could learn more about this development during the pre-planning consultation phase. (Comments had to be in by 22 March 2018) http://www.centralquayconsultation.co.uk

 

[gareth950]

Looks like the saga of Cardiff’s Bus Station is going to drag on and on ...
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/design-cardiffs-new-bus-station-14501625

Oh but don't worry, as Welsh Govt has now taken over control from Cardiff Council, the bus station is going to be part of a 'world class' integrated public transport hub. Someone at WG needs to buy a thesaurus. I despair.

Meanwhile - over on the south-west side of Cardiff Central Station - more information has been released about the plans for this land. I note that Penarth Road is to have only one lane of traffic each way. (I would have thought it essential to have two lanes each way). Anyway, the plans show trams running through the area - so presumably they reckon that fewer cars will be traversing this part of the city)? Also note the fact that only a THREE space coach station is to be provided for the likes of National Express etc. It seems to me that this Rightacres lot are all about maximising the profit that can be made from jamming in as many high buildings as possible. Note the lack of a wide riverside boulevard. I also do not see a particularly large piazza linking the retained Brain’s building with the river.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/new-pictures-show-how-huge-14500754

So whilst it seems designing and building a bus station has become impossible, building a 695 space, 7 storey car park up against the south side of central station is more of a priority. How on earth will this relieve traffic congestion in the heart of Cardiff city centre?
These plans are utter madness, totally insane, but will be waved through by the council anyway.

 

[HowardGWR]

Oh but don't worry, as Welsh Govt has now taken over control from Cardiff Council, the bus station is going to be part of a 'world class' integrated public transport hub. Someone at WG needs to buy a thesaurus. I despair.



So whilst it seems designing and building a bus station has become impossible, building a 695 space, 7 storey car park up against the south side of central station is more of a priority. How on earth will this relieve traffic congestion in the heart of Cardiff city centre?
These plans are utter madness, totally insane, but will be waved through by the council anyway.

One just hopes that these car park buildings can be easily converted into flats or offices when the car craze sees its demise. I have wondered whether there are any examples of such conversions.

 

[158756]

One just hopes that these car park buildings can be easily converted into flats or offices when the car craze sees its demise. I have wondered whether there are any examples of such conversions.

Most of them don't seem to be built to last longer than 40 or 50 years - plenty from the 60s and 70s have already gone. However I doubt they'll be made redundant - the 'car craze' isn't going to end any time soon I'm afraid - yes ownership is dropping among the young, but they overwhelmingly live in cities, and cars aren't going to be abandoned in the Vale or Valleys any time soon. Rail isn't viable for most journeys, even frequent commercial bus routes are withering away, declining even in London now, and the Metro is a figment of Ken Skates' imagination.

 

[gareth950]

Most of them don't seem to be built to last longer than 40 or 50 years - plenty from the 60s and 70s have already gone. However I doubt they'll be made redundant - the 'car craze' isn't going to end any time soon I'm afraid - yes ownership is dropping among the young, but they overwhelmingly live in cities, and cars aren't going to be abandoned in the Vale or Valleys any time soon. Rail isn't viable for most journeys, even frequent commercial bus routes are withering away, declining even in London now, and the Metro is a figment of Ken Skates' imagination.

The Valleys have the lowest level of car ownership anywhere in Wales, hence why the Valley lines are so popular for commuting into Cardiff.

This car park is going to be for the suits at the BBC and the other high-end office tower blocks that are going up around Central station - they can't possibly be expected to slum it with the public on the 'Metro', which flies in the face of the very reason why the Metro is being proposed in the first place.
There doesn't seem to be any joined up thinking anywhere in government at any level in Wales. On the one hand they propose a Metro to 'transform' and provide 'world class' public transport facilities - but want a mega car park in the heart of the city centre.
A congestion charge for Cardiff city centre is also being talked about - but they want a mega car park in the heart of the city centre.
Something 'must be done' about Cardiff's growing traffic congestion problem - but they want a mega car park in the heart of the city centre.
Active travel and cycling must be encouraged in Cardiff - but they want................

 

[Dai Corner]

The Valleys have the lowest level of car ownership anywhere in Wales, hence why the Valley lines are so popular for commuting into Cardiff.

This car park is going to be for the suits at the BBC and the other high-end office tower blocks that are going up around Central station - they can't possibly be expected to slum it with the plebs on the 'Metro', which flies in the face of the very reason why the Metro is being proposed in the first place.
There doesn't seem to be any joined up thinking anywhere in government at any level in Wales. On the one hand they propose a Metro to 'transform' and provide 'world class' public transport facilities - but want a mega car park in the heart of the city centre.
A congestion charge for Cardiff city centre is also being talked about - but they want a mega car park in the heart of the city centre.
Something 'must be done' about Cardiff's growing traffic congestion problem - but they want a mega car park in the heart of the city centre.
Active travel and cycling must be encouraged in Cardiff - but they want................

The 'suits' will get their parking and congestion charges paid as part of their 'package' and enjoy less congestion as the 'plebs' won't be able to afford to drive in.

 

[gareth950]

The 'suits' will get their parking and congestion charges paid as part of their 'package' and enjoy less congestion as the 'plebs' won't be able to afford to drive in.

I do wish you hadn't quoted my post before I'd had a chance to edit it! However, you've just summed up precisely what is wrong with the redevelopment, or should I say, gentrification of Cardiff city centre.
It's becoming blatantly obvious which people the redevelopment is really going to benefit.

 

[MarkyT]

Having a large car park at a major city station is not at all incompatible with an enlightened public and active transport strategy. It's all about addressing as wide a market as possible by providing choice. Would it it be better if all those for whom access to Intercity routes by local train or bus was inconvenient drove all the way instead of taking the train for the long distance leg? Take Switzerland and its capital Berne, a city with excellent public transport, yet its central station includes a huge car park, partly above and alongside the railway and tucked into the adjacent hillside. Access by road to the station car park can be gained without passing through the historic centre, much of it traffic restricted. Something similar could be appropriate for Cardiff with a non restricted route outside the congestion charge zone to the south side of the station, while the rest of the city centre to the north is inside the zone. Station parking could also supplement city and bay parking, even event parking for the stadium.

 

[Del1977]

The 'suits' will get their parking and congestion charges paid as part of their 'package' and enjoy less congestion as the 'plebs' won't be able to afford to drive in.

I love this idea that so-called 'suits' don't use public transport and prefer to drive. I always opt to use public transport - particularly if work is paying!

 

[Dai Corner]

I love this idea that so-called 'suits' don't use public transport and prefer to drive. I always opt to use public transport - particularly if work is paying!

When I commuted by bus or train to Bristol I never, ever saw a senior manager at the station or bus stop, except at Temple Meads on their way to/from London.

 

[Del1977]

When I commuted by bus or train to Bristol I never, ever saw a senior manager at the station or bus stop, except at Temple Meads on their way to/from London.

Well that depends on the journey they were making, doesn't it? If they were going from central Bristol to somewhere else in Bristol, they are unlikely to get the train given the paucity of local services and the low frequency on the Severn Beach line.

 

[Dai Corner]

Well that depends on the journey they were making, doesn't it? If they were going from central Bristol to somewhere else in Bristol, they are unlikely to get the train given the paucity of local services and the low frequency on the Severn Beach line.

My commute was from Nailsea and Backwell or Yatton. At the time, peak services were quite frequent (3 or 4 tph I think) and formed of HSTs or hauled stock. Even in standard/second class you always got a seat. There were plenty of senior managers living in the area.

Anyway we're talking about Cardiff which has frequent suburban se vices.

 

[Del1977]

Right. But is there any data on who drives and who commutes by train into central Cardiff, rather than it being assertions about it being for 'suits' and the like.


While I accept it's totally different in London, many years ago, we were considering moving office, and I had the data for everyone's home address, along with the data on their commute, as we were assessing how much we'd have to pay staff as an allowance, were we to shift offices from near Waterloo station to two other potential sites elsewhere in London.

Zero employees out of 1,500 commuted by car. No directors. No senior managers. No receptionists.

 

[HowardGWR]

I cannot envisage any demographic relationship between London, Bristol and SW Valleys commuting. I agree some specific data would be handy though.

 

[Del1977]

My point is, that "rich" people use public transport, when it is attractive.

 

[Dai Corner]

This remark was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, though my experience of commuting into Bristol and seeing none of those who worked for the same company and might be termed 'suits' in today's parlance on buses or local trains suggests they found them less attractive than their company cars and reserved city centre parking spaces.

The 'suits' will get their parking and congestion charges paid as part of their 'package' and enjoy less congestion as the 'plebs' won't be able to afford to drive in.

Are there any current Cardiff commuters reading who can comment?

 

[Llanigraham]

Personally I can think of several "professional" people, including an architect, 2 solicitors, and a senior accountant, who all catch the train from either Lisvane or Rhiwbina into the centre of Cardiff.

And to add, a couple of senoir managers from along the Vale line.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This remark was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, though my experience of commuting into Bristol and seeing none of those who worked for the same company and might be termed 'suits' in today's parlance on buses or local trains suggests they found them less attractive than their company cars and reserved city centre parking spaces.



Are there any current Cardiff commuters reading who can comment?

Not a Cardiff Commuter but the more well heeled postcodes are in Cardiff mainly away from the current rail services and in the Vale of Glamorgan. So ironically any well heeled commuter is likely to be stuck with 150's under Ken a Skates world class plans.

Check out the house prices in the Valleys.

 

[backontrack]

This remark was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, though my experience of commuting into Bristol and seeing none of those who worked for the same company and might be termed 'suits' in today's parlance on buses or local trains suggests they found them less attractive than their company cars and reserved city centre parking spaces.

That's what CityFox is for!

Not a Cardiff Commuter but the more well heeled postcodes are in Cardiff mainly away from the current rail services and in the Vale of Glamorgan. So ironically any well heeled commuter is likely to be stuck with 150's under Ken a Skates world class plans.

The Vale of Glamorgan is also one of the (relatively) few areas of Wales that had a majority of voters opting to stay in the EU. This is quite similar to the situation in Yorkshire; two of the most prosperous districts, York and Harrogate, were the two areas that backed Remain along with Leeds (where the margins were very narrow; Remain won out by 50.3%).

 

[gareth950]

The comments today since my tongue in cheek 'suits' vs 'public' comment are interesting.

My brother, who can very much be described as a 'suit', now lives and works in London, and he travels entirely by public transport when in and around London, even using London buses.
However, when he comes home to Cardiff, he never gets on a train into town or catches the bus, even though we have a train station and bus stop both 10 mins walk away. He always has to drive or get a taxi.

So if, as has been suggested, suits DO get public transport, why the need for a 700 space car park in the heart of the city? Surely if the Metro is going to be as ambitious, transformative and world class as Ken Skates boasts, giving us a step change in PT provision compared to what we have now, the public transport offering into Cardiff is going to be so exceptional that nobody will need to drive?
The people living in the 1000 apartments, or attending the new Cardiff Met Uni site, or going to socialise in the 50 bars and restaurants planned for the Brains Brewery site, or working in the high end office tower blocks that are now dominating the land around central station, or going to watch a rugby match at the stadium, or guests, execs and presenters at the BBC, can all use Skates' world class Metro to get in and out of the city centre? Right?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Vale of Glamorgan is also one of the (relatively) few areas of Wales that had a majority of voters opting to stay in the EU. This is quite similar to the situation in Yorkshire; two of the most prosperous districts, York and Harrogate, were the two areas that backed Remain along with Leeds (where the margins were very narrow; Remain won out by 50.3%).

Control over how European Funding was spent was one of the first things the National Assembly (Welsh Labour) whined over getting post 1999 having got their wish they have then decided on how European Structural Funds have been spent in Wales since the early 2000's. So all the folk in the Valleys who voted to leave the EU as they cant see that the EU Money is making any difference to them are in fact complaining about the choices made by their own politicians and how its has been spent by their own politicians.

 

[Envoy]

So, it would appear that the ‘suits’ don’t wish to travel with everybody else on public transport into central Cardiff? Sounds to me like they had better ensure that a first class section is available on the trams. They could start by making the rear section of the number 6 Baycar for first class passengers only - then the top brass from the Welsh Government offices in Cathays park could travel down to their place in the Bay without having to be with the riff-raff.

 

[HowardGWR]

The clue to this is in realities. 'Suits' will use train and tube in London along with the 'riff-raff' because there isn't really a better choice; even taxi can be slow. Clearly, there is no intention of the Welsh Government to make Cardiff so unpleasant to access by car that it conforms with the London situation. The same goes for Bristol. Neither city has any plans for congestion charging; they have both invested instead in park and ride (bus). The other measures needed are (a) no OOT office (white collar) development (b) restrict city centre car parking and make it very costly.