Bizarre routing restrictions

[Phil from Mon]

This screenshot from the ticketing system has just turned up on the ATW twitter feed as part of a thread on pricing between Ludlow and London. It shows routing and fares information for an advance ticket (Restriction VR) by VTWC and connections. Travel is NOT allowed via Banbury, Bedford, Berwick on Tweed, Didcot, Peterborough or Westbury.

Not via Banbury or Didcot I can understand, but why on earth is it necessary to specify not via Berwick on Tweed etc?

It seems even stranger given that the ticket in question is an advance.

 

[higthomas]

I'm guessing it's a standard set of points used to make sure journeys use Virgin West Coast. E.G. Makes sure Scotland-England journeys go via the west coast. Didcot, Westbury and Banbury makes sure journeys from places like Ludlow towards London and the South East go via Milton Keynes. The same for Bedford and Peterbrough making sure journeys from the North to the South east go via Milton Keynes. Saves them having to specify it for each specific set of routes.

 

[greatkingrat]

VR is a generic restriction code that applies to all advances set by Virgin West Coast. So while not via Berwick may be irrelevant in this case, it may be used for a London - Glasgow advance.

The problem is that sometimes +Connections tickets can give itineraries that only use the "main" TOC for a small percentage of the journey, eg Glasgow - Edinburgh on VWC, then Edinburgh - London on VTEC. This restriction looks like a bit of a hack to try and force journeys to use the WCML into Euston.

 

[Adlington]

What is "flow owner" ??

 

[gazthomas]

What is "flow owner" ??

As per greatkingrat's posting

 

[Adlington]

As per greatkingrat's posting

Please quote the bit which explains "flow owner"?

 

[yorkie]

The train company that sets the fares on that flow.

 

[Starmill]

This is an electronic restriction that is used to prevent Advance tickets from being purchased against itineraries which Virgin dislike. In the case of a Virgin Trains only ticket it does not particularly matter, but in the case of an AP Location fare or an '& Connections' the journey could go through those places.

 

[Adlington]

The train company that sets the fares on that flow.

Thank you.

 

[yorkie]

View attachment 44854
This has just turned up on the ATW twitter feed as part of a thread on pricing between Ludlow and London. Not via Banbury or Didcot I can understand, but why on earth is it necessary to specify not via Berwick on Tweed etc?

It seems even stranger given that the ticket in question is an advance.

Because the same restriction is used for journeys that could potentially go via Berwick.

Also just a reminder that our blind members/readers can't read text contained within images, so please do add a text quote or description of any images if possible.

 

[gazthomas]

Please quote the bit which explains "flow owner"?

Virgin Trains is the flow owner.

 

[Merseysider]

Virgin Trains is the flow owner.

Adlington was asking for the definition...

 

[Wallsendmag]

Virgin Trains WEST COAST is the flow owner.

Fixed that for you.

 

[robbeech]

I guess it ought to be West Coast Trains Ltd.

 

[yorkie]

The company doesn't usually like to apply a "West Coast" suffix to their public facing name.

So anyone refering to them purely as "Virgin Trains" is doing exactly what Virgin want them to do.

I agree Virgin should "fix" this confusing situation by applying a suffix, however so far they have repeatedly ignored calls to do so.

 

[robbeech]

And East Coast have many documents and paraphernalia omitting their suffix.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Thanks for this, interesting that when you look deeper there is a perfectly logical reason for what at first sight appears illogical!

Also just a reminder that our blind members/readers can't read text contained within images, so please do add a text quote or description of any images if possible.

Apologies, fixed now

 

[RJ]

VR is a generic restriction code that applies to all advances set by Virgin West Coast. So while not via Berwick may be irrelevant in this case, it may be used for a London - Glasgow advance.

The problem is that sometimes +Connections tickets can give itineraries that only use the "main" TOC for a small percentage of the journey, eg Glasgow - Edinburgh on VWC, then Edinburgh - London on VTEC. This restriction looks like a bit of a hack to try and force journeys to use the WCML into Euston.

I don't think it's anything to do with the VR restriction.

Those locations are in relation to the route element of the ticket - the VTWC &CONNECTNS route 452 has a list of banned locations in the online journey planner data - those shown in that RJIS screenshot.

Most, if not all routes have some banned locations, even Any Permitted! In some cases I think it is controversial because banned locations are appended to some routes that violate what's in the National Routeing Guide - which is where National Rail Enquiries gets its data from. The result is that some valid routes will never show in National Rail Enquires.

 

[RJ]

What is "flow owner" ??

The Train Operating Company that sets the prices for a specific flow. A flow principally comprises the origin, destination and route.

 

[RJ]

A few random other "routing restrictions", adapted from the public release of the NFM29 data.

Route    Description         Location            INCL_EXCL
00000    ANY PERMITTED       SOUTHSEA HOVERPT    Excluded
00023    LDN MIDLND.ONLY     BANBURY             Excluded
00025    EMIDSTRAINS ONLY    COVENTRY            Excluded
00025    EMIDSTRAINS ONLY    BLETCHLEY           Excluded
00025    EMIDSTRAINS ONLY    PETERBOROUGH        Excluded
00046    CHILTERN ONLY       WATFORD JUNCTION    Excluded
00046    CHILTERN ONLY       WEST HAMPSTEAD      Excluded
00046    CHILTERN ONLY       BEDFORD             Excluded
00046    CHILTERN ONLY       READING             Excluded
00046    CHILTERN ONLY       GLOUCESTER          Excluded
00046    CHILTERN ONLY       WORCESTER SHB HL    Excluded
00046    CHILTERN ONLY       HIGHBURY & ISLTN    Excluded
00046    CHILTERN ONLY       PETERBOROUGH        Excluded
00046    CHILTERN ONLY       STRATFORD LONDON    Excluded
00133    EBSFLET+HSNOTLON    LONDON ST PANCRS    Excluded
00133    EBSFLET+HSNOTLON    LONDON BLKFRIARS    Excluded
00133    EBSFLET+HSNOTLON    LONDON BRIDGE       Excluded
00133    EBSFLET+HSNOTLON    LONDON VICTORIA     Excluded
00133    EBSFLET+HSNOTLON    EBBSFLEET INT SE    Included
00133    EBSFLET+HSNOTLON    STRATFORD INT SE    Excluded
00154    RAILAIR WATERLOO    SLOUGH              Excluded
00154    RAILAIR WATERLOO    BRIXTON             Excluded
00154    RAILAIR WATERLOO    GREENWICH           Excluded
00154    RAILAIR WATERLOO    NEW CROSS           Excluded
00154    RAILAIR WATERLOO    BALHAM              Excluded
00154    RAILAIR WATERLOO    DENMARK HILL        Excluded
00154    RAILAIR WATERLOO    STRATFORD LONDON    Excluded
00305    VIA HIGH WYCOMBE    HIGH WYCOMBE        Included
00305    VIA HIGH WYCOMBE    WORCESTER SHB HL    Excluded
00312    VIA MANCHESTER      DERBY               Excluded
00312    VIA MANCHESTER      MANCHESTER PIC      Included
00312    VIA MANCHESTER      SWINDON (WILTS)     Excluded
00312    VIA MANCHESTER      DONCASTER           Excluded
00444    AP SWT & CONNECT    READING             Excluded
00444    AP SWT & CONNECT    CHICHESTER          Excluded
00444    AP SWT & CONNECT    BETCHWORTH          Excluded
00452    VTWC &CONNECTNS     BEDFORD             Excluded
00452    VTWC &CONNECTNS     DIDCOT PARKWAY      Excluded
00452    VTWC &CONNECTNS     BANBURY             Excluded
00452    VTWC &CONNECTNS     WESTBURY            Excluded
00452    VTWC &CONNECTNS     PETERBOROUGH        Excluded
00452    VTWC &CONNECTNS     BERWICK ON TWEED    Excluded
00599    STOCKWELL UND       NUNHEAD             Excluded
00599    STOCKWELL UND       CLAPHAM JUNCTION    Excluded
00703    LONDON NOT UND      STRATFORD INT SE    Excluded
00704    LDN NOT GATWKEXP    STRATFORD INT SE    Excluded
00716    VIA EDENBRIDGE      EAST CROYDON        Excluded
00716    VIA EDENBRIDGE      EDENBRIDGE          Included
00716    VIA EDENBRIDGE      CLAPHAM JUNCTION    Excluded
00717    VIA EDENB/POLEG     EAST CROYDON        Excluded
00717    VIA EDENB/POLEG     POLEGATE            Included
00717    VIA EDENB/POLEG     EDENBRIDGE          Included
00717    VIA EDENB/POLEG     CLAPHAM JUNCTION    Excluded
00790    VIA CITY THAMESL    WATFORD JUNCTION    Excluded
00790    VIA CITY THAMESL    CLAPHAM JUNCTION    Excluded
00790    VIA CITY THAMESL    PETERBOROUGH        Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      FARRINGDON          Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      LONDON ST PANCRS    Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      LONDON BLKFRIARS    Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      LONDON CANNON ST    Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      LONDON CHARING X    Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      LONDON BRIDGE       Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      LONDON WATRLOO E    Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      LONDON LIVRPL ST    Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      STRATFORD INT SE    Excluded
00902    DLR NOT LONDON      LONDON FENCH ST     Excluded
00923    LONDON ZONES 1-6    EBBSFLEET INT SE    Excluded
00923    LONDON ZONES 1-6    STRATFORD INT SE    Excluded
00955    GW BUSINESSFIRST    BIRMINGHAM N ST     Excluded
00955    GW BUSINESSFIRST    SALISBURY           Excluded
00955    GW BUSINESSFIRST    YEOVIL JUNCTION     Excluded
07779    SOUTHERN &LONMID    LONDON EUSTON       Excluded
07779    SOUTHERN &LONMID    KENSNGTN OLYMPIA    Included
07782    SN  & SE ONLY       EBBSFLEET INT SE    Excluded

 

[alistairlees]

A few random other "routing restrictions", adapted from the public release of the NFM29 data.

Route    Description         Location            INCL_EXCL
00000    ANY PERMITTED       SOUTHSEA HOVERPT    Excluded
00312    VIA MANCHESTER      DERBY               Excluded
00312    VIA MANCHESTER      MANCHESTER PIC      Included
00312    VIA MANCHESTER      SWINDON (WILTS)     Excluded
00312    VIA MANCHESTER      DONCASTER           Excluded

These routeing restrictions do cause all sorts of problems

1. The appearance of "Southsea Hoverport" in relation to any flow where the ticket is routed "Any Permitted". Customers think that something is broken when it isn't.

2. The requirement to go via Manchester on route 00312 causes most journey planners to not offer the last possible (and quite reasonable) London Euston to Edale journey, because the 20.00 Euston to Stockport, changing there into the 22.38 Stockport to Edale, whilst a perfectly reasonable journey, is not via Manchester so Fujitsu RIBS / Journey Planner won't offer a fare for it, instead offering a fare for the 18.20 Euston to Manchester / 20.45 Manchester to Edale combination instead. The customer is being denied a reasonable journey opportunity and the location inclusion was never intended (I believe) to force a needless doubleback through Manchester for journeys from the south.

Trainline has the same problem. National Rail only makes the 20.00 service work by offering split tickets (the combination is £75 cheaper!) which is good except that, of course, the hand off to Virgin Trains fails.

So many unintended consequences that all result in a worse customer experience from this particular exclusion.

There's a thread somewhere about Euston to Edale, and there are plenty of other examples.

 

[RJ]

These routeing restrictions do cause all sorts of problems

Agreed. Despite there allegedly being a process for getting permitted routes removed, it has been known for at least one TOC to directly email the custodian of the database to get restrictions added, which aren't actually forbidden by the Routeing Guide. Doing things like this undermines the integrity of the data that National Rail Enquiries and the journey planners provide. It also create problems for paying customers and colleagues on the front line.

So many unintended consequences that all result in a worse customer experience from this particular exclusion.

True. But having spent a minute or so examining the full list, some things I thought looked anomalous flashed up - and when I checked in NRE, lo and behold it would produce itineraries for these, providing a good opportunity to validate some significant savings. So I suppose it does cut both ways!