LOL, this forum. “Please come with us, person suspected of murder. We are nice so we won’t arrest you”.
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Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested
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LOL, this forum. “Please come with us, person suspected of murder. We are nice so we won’t arrest you”.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
A lot worse than my experience in confronting a burglar! Mine ran away after I shouted at him from the stairs. It turned out we knew them vaguely when the trial came. They had become a drug addict and were stealing to feed that habit.
Finding someone in your house uninvited does have a long term effect on you even without the added violence and "menaces" you clearly suffered.
I think they have the right to be sad and angry a member of their family has been killed and to grieve for them. The manner and nature of death doesn't negate that. However, I do agree that criminals very rarely consider the impact on their victims.
There could be a way of making an arrest secure, but not formal, to avoid problems with the arrest being recorded. If a conviction occurs, then make the arrest formal retrospectively.
Agreed.
The article I linked to earlier goes on to state:
I find your posts on such matters to be very frustrating, and make me feel angry, so I am not going to read the rest of it. I know what you're going to say from previous threads on the matter of violent criminals and I know I can't change your mind. So I will leave it there.
I would have thought an arrest should remain a private matter given that the person arrested may well be completely innocent?
The family of the deceased really have spouted some tripe although I suppose they have to be given some airtime in the interests of fairness?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
that's fine as i know what you are going to say - However, with respect, you don't ever try to change anyone's mind. You just expect people to sagely nod and agree with you. The justice system in this country operates within the framework and funding the government give it. I agree that needs to change for the better.
I readily agree that the justice system in this country isnt perfect by any means. I know how I would change it. Perhaps you could explain how you would.
With regards to this case I recognise the need for the investigation and the arrest as a means of securing evidence.
What I do hope however is that the investigation isn’t too lengthy (should it prove to be self defence). The legal process does seem to move so slowly at times.
The police are often put in a difficult positions. And any criticism levelled at them for the arrest/ investigation is unfair.
There was that recent incident in Colnbrook where the burglar was shot dead by the occupants of a caravan. The only come back on that occasion and was the burglary victim held a firearm without a licence. They were not culpable for the murder.
I’m going to sound really callous but I have zero sympathy for burglars. They show little or no regard to their victims. Whilst the suspect didn’t deserve to die, there is an inherent risk entering someone’s property without consent.
In a previous life I have dealt with burglars stealing from the terminally ill and elderly. These people are lowest of the low.
What I do hope however is that the investigation isn’t too lengthy (should it prove to be self defence). The legal process does seem to move so slowly at times.
The police are often put in a difficult positions. And any criticism levelled at them for the arrest/ investigation is unfair.
There was that recent incident in Colnbrook where the burglar was shot dead by the occupants of a caravan. The only come back on that occasion and was the burglary victim held a firearm without a licence. They were not culpable for the murder.
I’m going to sound really callous but I have zero sympathy for burglars. They show little or no regard to their victims. Whilst the suspect didn’t deserve to die, there is an inherent risk entering someone’s property without consent.
In a previous life I have dealt with burglars stealing from the terminally ill and elderly. These people are lowest of the low.
EM2
Established Member
But someone can also be de-arrested:
http://www.keepcalmtalklaw.co.uk/de-arresting-how-does-it-work/
This is rather a long piece, but a brief summary follows.
There's a very good reason why arrests are recorded in the Police National Computer regardless of whether the suspect is charged or even convicted.
No, because you would still have to answer "yes" to the question "have you ever been arrested"? Someone who is de-arrested is not processed into custody, but it would still be incorrect (and very unwise) to tell the US authorities that you have never been arrested.
Bromley boy
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Absolutely. His cousin and brother are clearly idiots, and are probably horrible people themselves. I’d hazard a guess which bit of Orpington they come from as well.
If a relative of mine behaved in this way and paid the ultimate price I’d be upset they were dead, of course, but I wouldn’t blame a 78 year old pensioner for defending his home and his wife.
So you can be barred from the Visa Waiver program simply because of mistaken identity. I don't see how that can be right.
You don't have an absolute right to use it. The (fairly unreasonable, imo) conditions are set by the Government of the United States. Are you proposing that:
1) The United States' Visa Waiver Program is much too restrictive and intrusive, or:
2) People arrested on suspicion of very serious offences should always have their records struck from the PNC so you don't have to get a visa to enter a foreign country?
Certainly the Visa Waiver Program seems ridiculously unreasonable. Is the US the only country which imposes such a restriction?
Are there any other possible negative consequences of being arrested?
An arrest will show up on an enhanced DBS check which may in certain circumstances be disclosed if relevant.
Police have said the gentleman arrested on suspicion of murder faces no further action. So there you go.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....sioner-78-arrested-after-burglar-12317316.amp
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....sioner-78-arrested-after-burglar-12317316.amp
Well that's good news and much quicker than I expected.
Bromley boy
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Great result. Happy days.
Brilliant result. But can we be happy that what looks rather like an over-hasty arrest brings, apparently, consequences like that arrest shewing up on enhanced DBS checks and possibly raising difficulties for a USA visa application, and maybe others?
Yes.
Are you proposing that people who have been arrested for serious offences should have no record whatsoever of their arrest even if not convicted?
How would vulnerable person safeguarding work then?
If they are not convicted, why would you need to keep a record of their arrest?
Can you think of any good reasons why the police might want to keep a record of who they’ve arrested?
How you go about the specifics I don't know. But you should not be worse off after then you were before.
Edit: I should say that it is possible to make an application to have your pnc records deleted if you have been arrested but not convicted. However it is up to the Chief Police officer to decide.
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I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle, the police had no choice but to arrest the gentleman, things aren't always what they seem, remember the Tracie Andrews 'road rage' murder years ago?
But the fact that he was arrested should absolutely not be held against him in the future.
Your posts about our 'disgraceful legal system' are also hidebound.
DarloRich actually said a lot that I disagree with in the post you refused to read in its entirety. More closely aligned to your 'throw away the keys' attitude than you suspect. But then you're responding based on assumption having refused to read the entire post.
I understand why records would be kept by Police but why should they show up on checks made by anyone else?
They needed to interview him and obtain a statement from him, but did they need to arrest him "on suspicion of attempted murder"? It sounds as if some politically-correct PC had made up his mind that a crime had been committed (apart from burglary) and was assuming guilt (hence "on suspicion", which means "I think it quite likely that ..."). That's certainly not innocent until proven guilty.
It is innocent until proven guilty, I think you're reading too much into the legal terminology.
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