Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[northwichcat]

Plus an unexpected Ellesmere Port-Manchester Victoria evening through service.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22771/2018/05/21/advanced

Look's like the unit off the 16:41 Manchester to Chester runs ECS to Helsby, runs in service to Ellesmere Port and then to Victoria, with the unit off the 17:18 Stockport to Chester picking up the return working to Manchester.

The morning working is more strange though, the unit ends up in Warrington: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24303/2018/05/21/advanced, runs ECS to Wigan: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69828/2018/05/21/advanced, then runs to Leeds: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y21410/2018/05/21/advanced

 

[northwichcat]

This may well be an error which will be ironed out at a later date.

Unless there's a freight train not yet in the system I think it could be, the Northern stopper is 5 minutes ahead of the XC service which is the next service to require platform 3 at Stockport.

There's a common held belief that way back when, when the railway companies of the time were obtaining permission to build Stockport Viaduct, an act of Parliment was passed which meant all passenger trains that traversed the viaduct had to make a passenger call at the station, thereby not skipping the station at the convenience of the more lucrative Manchester market. Cross Country were caught out by this several years ago when they tried to withdraw Stockport as a calling point for around half of their services. Needless to say, several pages of timetabling amendments were issued when a local MP pointed this out.

That wasn't the case at all. XC said 'prove it' and the MP tried to but couldn't. XC did remove the calls and added them back in a few years later, the reason for the Bristol services missing out Stockport was due to pathing constraints around Birmingham and they a call at Stockport would have added something like 10 minutes to the journey time. Up until that point Manchester hadn't had a Bristol service, the Scotland-Preston-Birmingham services had continued to Bristol and half the Manchester to Birmingham services terminated at Birmingham but that changed as part of the franchise remapping.

 

[RAPC]

The morning working is more strange though, the unit ends up in Warrington: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24303/2018/05/21/advanced, runs ECS to Wigan: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69828/2018/05/21/advanced, then runs to Leeds: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y21410/2018/05/21/advanced

This already exists, with the only change being that the current service terminates at Manchester Victoria and will be extended to Leeds in the new timetable. At the moment I think the unit heads back from Victoria through Wigan and and on to Southport.

 

[lejog]

As well as the bizarre calling patterns on the Calder Valley, there's good news and bad news. The planned improved evening services with 2tph semifast services replacing the 1tph all stations stopper between Leeds and Victoria are happening. Also a 23:38 from Leeds to Hebden Bridge, over 1 hr later than now. However the Sunday service remains at 1tph rather than the planned 2tph. Surely this delay can't be blamed on the DMU shortage?

 

[Deerfold]

lso a 23:38 from Leeds to Hebden Bridge, over 1 hr later than now.

Which, rather oddly, skips Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd.

However Sunday service remains at 1tph, rather than the planned 2tph. Surely Northern can't explain this delay on the DMU shortage?

Unless they need more to be available for maintenance.

 

[Thomas6187]

There is one train a day in each direction between Leeds and Hull operated by Northern.

06:02 Leeds-Hull via Harrogate and York
22:30 Hull-Leeds direct

 

[philjo]

I see that the Windermere trains have now appeared in RTT. The timings at Oxenholme are much worse than at present. There are some trains from Windermere that arrive at Oxenholme a few minutes after the train to Euston has left.
I also found some instances where the Windermere train leaves Oxenholme shortly before the arrival from Euston. In the current timetable these are connections but passengers will be having lengthy waits at Oxenholme in future. There is one extra service (1232) from Windermere through to Lancaster.

 

[Grannyjoans]

There is now a Southport - Leeds hourly express train in the system on RTT, I wonder what they will use on this before the 170's arrive ?

156's ? 158's ? 185's even ?



Also there there is now a Preston - Manchester Airport (via Chorley) 156-hauled service, and a Blackpool - Manchester Airport (via Wigan NW & Golborne Jct) every hour, operated by 319's. You'd think they'd just have one or the other, not both.

 

[northwichcat]

There is now a Southport - Leeds hourly express train in the system on RTT, I wonder what they will use on this before the 170's arrive ?

156's ? 158's ? 185's even ?

As I said a few posts back one of the units will be the same which does the morning Ellesmere Port-Helsby shuttle, so I guess that'll be a 156 due to Lime Street crews needing to sign it.

Also there there is now a Preston - Manchester Airport (via Chorley) 156-hauled service, and a Blackpool - Manchester Airport (via Wigan NW & Golborne Jct) every hour, operated by 319's. You'd think they'd just have one or the other, not both.

Why? The franchise was let on the basis they'd operate an Airport to Preston via Wigan service (continuing to Cumbria) and an Airport to Preston via Bolton service (continuing to Blackpool.) Operating the Blackpool service via Wigan as a temporary measure makes sense otherwise there would be an EMU surplus at the same time as a DMU shortage.

 

[lejog]

Some of the Leeds-Brighouse-Victoria services are currently 158s, but whether these will make it to Southport depends I suppose on staff signing them. Victoria drivers do, but are there staff at Wigan/Southport?

Northern's track acess agreement specifies 158s to be used on all Leeds to York services. It will be interesting to see if Northern keep to this if there are to be Huddersfield to York services as, the Huddersfield-Bradford-Leeds service is rarely a 158.

 

[northwichcat]

Some of the Leeds-Brighouse-Victoria services are currently 158s, but whether these will make it to Southport depends I suppose on staff signing them.

Well they won't be 153s or 155s due to them not being cleared to work through Wigan, which is possibly one reason why the 155s look to be moving East to Hull.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I wouldn't assume that

23:00 Leeds to Sheffield via Castleford and 23:16 Leeds to Knottingley very much appreciated Northern!

SX, mind. It looks like on Saturdays the 23:00 will terminate at Castleford and the 23:16 won't run at all.

 

[Deerfold]

I wouldn't assume that

SX, mind. It looks like on Saturdays the 23:00 will terminate at Castleford and the 23:16 won't run at all.

I seem to remember that at some point in the 80s they had a lot of problems on late night trains from Sheffield to Wakefield and Leeds, leading to them terminating before reaching those points. They seem to still do so. Currently the last trains from Sheffield on a Saturday night is at 2231 with both the weekday 2315 and 2318 missing. From the new timetable there's a 2311 XC on a Saturday and the 2315 local on M-F. Both miss Wakefield out.

I wonder if the non-existence of these on a Saturday is related?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sometimes this kind of thing sticks for years. I understand the lack of an evening service on Kirkby to Wigan was due to antisocial behaviour issues (though I think more repeated bricking of trains than drunk people on board - the kind of thing that causes estates to lose evening bus services). That's been the case for years, and while I think the last train is about an hour later than it was it still finishes around 7pm and so isn't any use for a longer commute.

 

[Mathew S]

Sometimes this kind of thing sticks for years. I understand the lack of an evening service on Kirkby to Wigan was due to antisocial behaviour issues (though I think more repeated bricking of trains than drunk people on board - the kind of thing that causes estates to lose evening bus services). That's been the case for years, and while I think the last train is about an hour later than it was it still finishes around 7pm and so isn't any use for a longer commute.

On the one occasion it happened to me it was golf balls, rather than bricks, but you are correct.

That said, one of the things I'm genuinely chuffed about with the May timetable is that the service on the Kirkby line is going back to being a little more like it used to be before said cut-backs took place. Making it possible to arrive in Manchester before 8am and leave after 6pm is a real bonus, which translates into 7am/7pm for Liverpool commuters. Yes, it's not perfect; I'll still have to travel into Wigan to start my journey at least twice a week because I can't be in work early/late enough otherwise, but it's a genuine - and very welcome - improvement.

Mind you, there are some really odd workings on that line in the middle of the day, with trains starting from, and terminating in, the bay at Wigan Wallgate. There's at least one where the service runs from Kirkby to Wallgate, terminates in the bay platform, then the unit runs to the sidings and back to the Manchester bound platform to do a service into Manchester. I'm sure there's a reason why they've been planned like this, but I certainly can't work it out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the one occasion it happened to me it was golf balls, rather than bricks, but you are correct.

That said, one of the things I'm genuinely chuffed about with the May timetable is that the service on the Kirkby line is going back to being a little more like it used to be before said cut-backs took place. Making it possible to arrive in Manchester before 8am and leave after 6pm is a real bonus, which translates into 7am/7pm for Liverpool commuters. Yes, it's not perfect; I'll still have to travel into Wigan to start my journey at least twice a week because I can't be in work early/late enough otherwise, but it's a genuine - and very welcome - improvement.

I'm both shocked and impressed that the hourly clockface Ormskirk to Preston service is just that - hourly from start of service (06something) to end of service (22something) with no deviations whatsoever. More of that kind of thing is needed.

 

[splashoutradio]

That said, one of the things I'm genuinely chuffed about with the May timetable is that the service on the Kirkby line is going back to being a little more like it used to be before said cut-backs took place. Making it possible to arrive in Manchester before 8am and leave after 6pm is a real bonus, which translates into 7am/7pm for Liverpool commuters. Yes, it's not perfect; I'll still have to travel into Wigan to start my journey at least twice a week because I can't be in work early/late enough otherwise, but it's a genuine - and very welcome - improvement.

Mind you, there are some really odd workings on that line in the middle of the day, with trains starting from, and terminating in, the bay at Wigan Wallgate. There's at least one where the service runs from Kirkby to Wallgate, terminates in the bay platform, then the unit runs to the sidings and back to the Manchester bound platform to do a service into Manchester. I'm sure there's a reason why they've been planned like this, but I certainly can't work it out.

I noticed this also. Really quite happy about the later services on the line. Shame it couldm't be a tad later out of Victoria on the last train. mind, as it's still classed as a peak time departure.

The only possible reason I've been able to come up with for the odd daytime workings on the line, is to do with traffic to the Knowsley Freight Terminal. Currently, it seems impossible for freight trains to keep to time between Knowsley and Rainford, and it's not unusual for a Kirkby bound passenger train to be held at Rainford for 10 minutes waiting for the single line to clear. All the odd non-clockface timings seem to be around the time of freight movements.

 

[yorksrob]

I wouldn't assume that


SX, mind. It looks like on Saturdays the 23:00 will terminate at Castleford and the 23:16 won't run at all.

Utterly shambolic. Quite why train companies are allowed to get away with this sort of thing for decades I don't know. On the occasions I've travelled on the last Leeds - Sheffield train on a Saturday the biggest problems are when they try and fit too many people on a two carriage pacer.

Do they honestly believe that the 23:00 clientele is going to be vastly different from the 22:37 clientele?

Looking at it now, I see that there is a later opportunity to Normanton at 22:50 by changing at Wakefield, which is a slight improvement. That said, this 22:50 is also the latest train between Leeds and Wakefield on a Saturday - a whopping seven minutes later than the last train currently (excuse me while I rupture myself with excitement), so this will be a rigmarole. I wonder if they will massively strengthen it, like they have to the current last train (the Sheffield via Moorthorpe).

Disappointed to see that the 21:48 Settle to Leeds gets in at 22:48, so we still don't have a decent connection from the S&C to the Wakefield area (although we do on weekdays).

They really shouldn't terminate the Saturday 23:00 at Castleford.

 

[Confused147]

Pushing ahead with Macclesfield to Blackpool when the wires aren't ready and there's a DMU shortage would be madness.

As far as I'm aware the Macclesfield to Manchester line is fully electrified and doesn't require DMU so couldn't the future Blackpools run from Macclesfield to ermm lets say Deansgate, and then when the line beyond Deansgate to Blackpool is fully electrified and ready, the Deansgate terminators can continue at a mid-timetable date rather than waiting until December? I'm sure residents of Poynton & Bramhall will be thrilled at the news they are going to be stuck for another 7 months without a regular train service to Manchester.

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose thinking about it, it is a bit of an improvement getting from the S&C, because whereas I used to have a dodgy connection meaning a possible taxi every day, I now have an official connection on weekdays with a guaranteed taxi leg on Saturday.

 

[northernchris]

Some of the Leeds-Brighouse-Victoria services are currently 158s, but whether these will make it to Southport depends I suppose on staff signing them. Victoria drivers do, but are there staff at Wigan/Southport?

Northern's track acess agreement specifies 158s to be used on all Leeds to York services. It will be interesting to see if Northern keep to this if there are to be Huddersfield to York services as, the Huddersfield-Bradford-Leeds service is rarely a 158.

Interesting, if so it will be like the pre-May 14 timetable where 3 car 158s ran the Selby-Wakefield. Not sure if there will be enough 158s to cover the Southports as well although this may depend on how many are required around Barrow/Windermere

I've also noticed a 1725 Leeds-Hebden Bridge service which on arrival at Hebden Bridge looks to go to Crofton depot

 

[Starmill]

Not sure why you've picked on Alderley Edge. There's loads of places getting either additional DMUs, keeping DMUs that were supposed to be freed up or getting DMUs due to bi-modes being delayed.

No specific reason. I simply chose it as one of a range of examples; you correctly point out that it applies to many places.

I suppose, its a more egregious case because to the place that is benefitting, the service is worse with DMUs than it is at present with EMUs.

Let's be honest the whole timetable looks like planners have done what's easiest in a short time frame than what's best.

I fear you may be right.

I am currently seeking confirmation from Northern on whether or not the final train of the day on my line is to be moved 30 minutes earlier, as current timetables suggest. I hope this is just that the times are not yet complete.

 

[lejog]

I've also noticed a 1725 Leeds-Hebden Bridge service which on arrival at Hebden Bridge looks to go to Crofton depot

Interesting, theres a Crofton to Leeds service arriving at 16.55, described as a Northern 125mph DMU, to complete the loop.

There's an equivalent morning service too, a 6.56 arrival at Hebden Bridge from Crofton, forming the 7.02 to Leeds. This seems to replace the current Halifax to Leeds Class 180. It looks as if it may be joined by a return evening peak class 180 service.

 

[Starmill]

That Stockport Viaduct carry on turned out to be false didn't it? XC continued to have half of their Sunday services not call for nearly a decade, and several trains a day from various Tocs still omit the call there. If they don't fit in the timetable, they don't fit in the timetable...

Indeed. In the current Saturday timetable, the 1359 Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester Piccadilly calls at all stations Kidsgrove to Stockport inclusive, and then Manchester Piccadilly at 1454. The new version of the same train leaves Stoke-on-Trent 1 minute earlier and arrives at Manchester Piccadilly 2 minutes earlier. But it no longer calls at Cheadle Hulme or Stockport. It does call at Heaton Chapel and Levelshulme.

Not calling at Stockport, as the second most significant destination on the line, is poor but manageable as people can change at Cheadle Hulme. But then if you don't call at Cheadle Hulme either, what are people supposed to do? There is no alternative train for 60 minutes, which would be the next one from Stoke-on-Trent anyway. So unless people are permitted to double back from Heaton Chapel that's clearly a problem. It isn't a problem at the moment.

 

[Andyh82]

Interesting, theres a Crofton to Leeds service arriving at 16.55, described as a Northern 125mph DMU, to complete the loop.

There's an equivalent morning service too, a 6.56 arrival at Hebden Bridge from Crofton, forming the 7.02 to Leeds. This seems to replace the current Halifax to Leeds Class 180. It looks as if it may be joined by a return evening peak class 180 service.

Interesting
The current morning class 180 runs as the unit is spare before it starts its days work to London

But an afternoon service would be an additional diagram, as no 180s have finished by then.

 

[Bovverboy]

Indeed. In the current Saturday timetable, the 1359 Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester Piccadilly calls at all stations Kidsgrove to Stockport inclusive, and then Manchester Piccadilly at 1454. The new version of the same train leaves Stoke-on-Trent 1 minute earlier and arrives at Manchester Piccadilly 2 minutes earlier. But it no longer calls at Cheadle Hulme or Stockport. It does call at Heaton Chapel and Levelshulme.

Not calling at Stockport, as the second most significant destination on the line, is poor but manageable as people can change at Cheadle Hulme. But then if you don't call at Cheadle Hulme either, what are people supposed to do? There is no alternative train for 60 minutes, which would be the next one from Stoke-on-Trent anyway. So unless people are permitted to double back from Heaton Chapel that's clearly a problem. It isn't a problem at the moment.

I can't see any impediment to changing at Heaton Chapel, however illogical it might appear. The option will almost certainly show in the journey planner. Whether you would be able to do it for the same fare as going directly to Stockport is another matter.

 

[Starmill]

The option will almost certainly show in the journey planner.

It shows on all good journey planners. For example it shows on trainsplit.com.



It does not show on poor journey planners. For example, northernrailway.co.uk does not display that journey.

Other journey planners such as NRE will tell you about that journey, but they won't permit you to buy it. Only Trainsplit can do that. And they are forced to charge the customer £2 more to make the same journey that takes twice as long, from May.

 

[Andyh82]

Were the peak hour Northern services Huddersfield to Manchester always the plan?

Regarding Leeds to Lincoln, am I right in thinking that at a later date this service will reduce its calling points Sheffield to Lincoln, and a new stopper will be introduced, as at the moment it’s fast north of Sheffield but a stopper thereafter.

 

[Bovverboy]

Other journey planners such as NRE will tell you about that journey, but they won't permit you to buy it. Only Trainsplit can do that. And they are forced to charge the customer £2 more to make the same journey that takes twice as long, from May.

I make the extra charge to be £2.70 (£5.80 cf. £3.10) and the journey time (including the wait at Heaton Chapel) over three times as long. (29 mins cf. 9 mins).

 

[Starmill]

I make the extra charge to be £2.70 (£5.80 cf. £3.10) and the journey time (including the wait at Heaton Chapel) over three times as long. (29 mins cf. 9 mins).

Sorry yes, you are indeed right.