Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

[greyman42]

Hopefully you don’t ever do jury service if you’re saying that before the trial even begins.

There will not be a trial because it will not be in the public interest.

 

[greyman42]

I can understand the arrest in order to preserve the integrity of an investigation. *However*, it the circumstances are as they seem then I would hope and expect the investigation to be wrapped up quickly without wasting taxpayers money and without imposing anymore stress on the victim in all of this - who is of course the householder.

This may upset some, however every burglar knows the risk they take when they enter someone else's home, so I have no sympathy at all if the outcome of the attempted burglary is the burglar sustains a fatal injury. In fact I'd go as far as to say good riddance.

Well said.

 

[AlterEgo]

There will not be a trial because it will not be in the public interest.

Doesn’t make a difference to your comment.

 

[greyman42]

So? Even though he/she was a burglar, doesn't mean they should be killed!

Not everyone agrees with you on that.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There will not be a trial because it will not be in the public interest.

As far as we the public know.
How do you know the police are not aware of other factors at play?
You don't.
Hence why the need for due process and an investigation.

 

[Iskra]

I come across as very defensive because I am very defensive towards the 78 year old victim. If the dead person had not gone out to burgle peoples houses then no doubt he would be alive now.

So you support citizens being able to summarily execute others?

 

[bramling]

So? Even though he/she was a burglar, doesn't mean they should be killed!

Not sure about that. If someone has got as far as being inside someone else's home then it's hard to argue that they ended up there accidentally. The householder has every right to defend themselves and their property, and in that situation it's unreasonable to expect them to conduct some kind of assessment as to why the person is in their home, what their motives may be, and what constitutes reasonable force.

 

[cactustwirly]

Not everyone agrees with you on that.

But the law does! It could be seen as manslaughter, depending in the the circumstances of the case.

 

[greyman42]

So you support citizens being able to summarily execute others?

In the circumstances, he did nothing that will lead to a prosecution.

 

[Senex]

There seems to be too much we don't yet know. The only reference to a weapon is to the screwdriver carried by one of the burglars, and there are references to bruising on the arms of the householder. That suggests a struggle, and the burglar getting stabbed with his own weapon, which he presumably brought with offensive intent. But we don't know. Personally, my sympathies are entirely with the householder. If you find an armed intruder in your house in the middle of the night, you ought to be fully entitled to do whatever is required to eliminate the threat.

 

[Iskra]

Not sure about that. If someone has got as far as being inside someone else's home then it's hard to argue that they ended up there accidentally. The householder has every right to defend themselves and their property, and in that situation it's unreasonable to expect them to conduct some kind of assessment as to why the person is in their home, what their motives may be, and what constitutes reasonable force.

There are reasonable and proportionate steps you can take, if you go beyond those, the law is no longer on your side.

E.g. Tony Martin shooting someone in the back as they ran away.

In the circumstances, he did nothing that will lead to a prosecution.

In your opinion, without knowing any facts.

 

[cactustwirly]

it's unreasonable to expect them to conduct some kind of assessment as to why the person is in their home, what their motives may be, and what constitutes reasonable force.

No it's not! That is how the law works!

 

[greyman42]

There are reasonable and proportionate steps you can take, if you go beyond those, the law is no longer on your side.

E.g. Tony Martin shooting someone in the back as they ran away.



In your opinion, without knowing any facts.

Time will tell then.

 

[Antman]

Remember the Tracie Andrews 'road rage' incident that turned out to be something completely different? The police cannot just assume it was an innocent victim and a burglar and the only way they can establish exactly what happened is to arrest the suspect before he has a chance to destroy any evidence, I'm not saying he would of course but it is a possibility. Whether there is a subsequent trial remains to be seen.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm fast approaching 70 and, for a few years, lived in Hither Green and then for a few more years a couple of miles away, so this particularly resonates with me. I also worked for the Probation Service for some of this period, though not in S.E. London.

This is a tragic situation: tragic that someone has died, obviously, but perhaps even more tragic for a 78 year old whose life will never be the same again, regardless of whether he is ever prosecuted.

There are many countries where burglary of an occupied house at night (or one that is very likely to be occupied) results in very long prison sentences, even life if not a first offence. Occupiers of houses/flats too have far more protection in law in these countries if a confrontation results, which is indisputably true in this case. Factors to be taken into account include the age/vulnerability etc of the householder and the 'fear' factor. It is, after all, the householder whose life is being violated (and may be in danger of losing his/her life if not complying with the demands of the violator). We don't have to go down the route of the USA where you just shoot and ask questions afterwards (if at all) but the present legal situation is most unsatisfactory. 'Justified homicide' may not be exactly the route to go down to the end, but a balance has to be redressed.

Just a final thought from an old Londoner - a 78 man is in custody for the suspected murder of someone who chose to break into his house, while the drive-by murderer of a female youth worker aged 17 remains at large, together with the murderer of a 16 year old boy the same night in Walthamstow. I know which deaths I feel the police should be directing most attention to.

 

[Geezertronic]

Play with fire, get burnt. There seems to be an increasing number of violent crimes particularly near where I live where the scum of society think they can come into a persons home and take what they want with physical violence, particularly where vehicles are concerned. It is no surprise that people live in fear because of this scum, and it is also no surprise that people will prepare themselves so they can protect themselves if found in that situation.

 

[Bromley boy]

The householder has every right to defend themselves and their property, and in that situation it's unreasonable to expect them to conduct some kind of assessment as to why the person is in their home, what their motives may be, and what constitutes reasonable force.

No it's not! That is how the law works!

Yes it is how the law works, under the so called householder defence:

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/jan/15/high-court-rejects-challenge-to-householder-defence-law

Householders can use a disproportionate level of force against an intruder in their homes if they reasonably believe it is necessary, the high court has ruled.

Judges ruled that the “householder defence”, which relieves people of the responsibility of making fine judgments about proportionality in the heat of the moment, so long as it is necessary, was compatible with European human rights laws.

This is a slightly different to the normal law on self defence. Householders have a wider latitude to react “in the heat of the moment” even though that reaction might be seen as disproportionate in the cold light of day.

I understand why the police need to conduct an investigation and I hope it is concluded swiftly.

From what we know so far the 78 yo deserves a medal and, as for the burglar, he won’t be breaking into any more houses will he?! Good bloody riddance!

 

[Iskra]

It’s sad to see certain posters celebrating the death of another human being. Have some decorum.

 

[bramling]

It’s sad to see certain posters celebrating the death of another human being. Have some decorum.

Sorry, no.

Someone who enters someone else's house isn't a human being - in my view they're just complete scum. If their death avoids distress to others, then whilst I wouldn't be cracking open the champagne to celebrate as such, it's certainly not a bad outcome IMO.

Any potential burglar cannot fail to be aware of what could happen, and it's not like one can force one's way inside someone else's home by accident.

 

[Darandio]

It’s sad to see certain posters celebrating the death of another human being. Have some decorum.

Whilst I wouldn't go as far as celebrating, I am happy to state that I have absolute zero sympathy.

It's a strange thread, the impression I get from some is that if they encountered a burglar, they would offer a cuppa!

 

[Geezertronic]

+1 to the two posts above

 

[GB]

The only sympathy I have is for the home owner and the deceased burglars family.

 

[greyman42]

It’s sad to see certain posters celebrating the death of another human being. Have some decorum.

It’s sad to see certain posters celebrating the death of another human being. Have some decorum.

What decorum did the burglars have?

 

[Bromley boy]

It’s sad to see certain posters celebrating the death of another human being. Have some decorum.

Leave it out.

If that had been your elderly relative whose home was broken into you’d be singing a different tune.

 

[Iskra]

Whilst I wouldn't go as far as celebrating, I am happy to state that I have absolute zero sympathy.

It's a strange thread, the impression I get from some is that if they encountered a burglar, they would offer a cuppa!

Agreed, on the lack of sympathy but there’s no need to stick the boot in when someone has already paid the ultimate price.

 

[bramling]

Agreed, on the lack of sympathy but there’s no need to stick the boot in when someone has already paid the ultimate price.

No one has stuck the boot in as such. If things are as they seem, the person took a gamble, which on this occasion didn't work out. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[Harbornite]

Whilst I wouldn't go as far as celebrating, I am happy to state that I have absolute zero sympathy.

It's a strange thread, the impression I get from some is that if they encountered a burglar, they would offer a cuppa!

Agreed. Ideally, the chap would not have partaken in a robbery and ended up getting killed but we don't live in an ideal world. On a more positive note, at least he won't be able to attempt any more robberies.

No one has stuck the boot in as such. If things are as they seem, the person took a gamble, which on this occasion didn't work out. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Fair point.

There seems to be too much we don't yet know. The only reference to a weapon is to the screwdriver carried by one of the burglars, and there are references to bruising on the arms of the householder. That suggests a struggle, and the burglar getting stabbed with his own weapon, which he presumably brought with offensive intent. But we don't know. Personally, my sympathies are entirely with the householder. If you find an armed intruder in your house in the middle of the night, you ought to be fully entitled to do whatever is required to eliminate the threat.

This sums up my thoughts on the matter.

It’s sad to see certain posters celebrating the death of another human being. Have some decorum.

Some deaths are worth celebrating. I'm not naming any names but there are obvious contenders.

 

[Antman]

Agreed, on the lack of sympathy but there’s no need to stick the boot in when someone has already paid the ultimate price.

Does it really matter? If the facts are as reported few people are going to have any sympathy for the deceased.

 

[greyman42]

Does it really matter? If the facts are as reported few people are going to have any sympathy for the deceased.

No it does not matter. The vast majority of decent people could not care less about anyone putting the boot in.

 

[Karl]

Why has the other suspect in this case not been down to the Police station to try and shed some light on the matter?

Perversely, I hope they are either a relative or a loved one of the deceased.