ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[JohnR]

THERE ARE NO SCOTRAIL ROUTES OVER 100MPH! (that I'm aware of)
This thread is about Scotrail HSTs. I can just about see a discussion of how IETs would fare in Scotland in the far future being on-topic, but the performance of IETs on lines that don't exist in Scotland? Come on. Take it back to the other IET-bashing threads.

(not having a go specifically at JohnR, but at everybody who is spreading this much-repeated gripe into this thread where it is clearly irrelevant)

Apologies, I had a little backlog to go through and replied to that message before I saw the request.

 

[Railperf]

It was widely reported that the leasing costs for the HSTs are lower than the 170s as the HSTs are now 40 years old, which was why Abellio went for that option. The fuel costs will be higher certainly, but the lower leasing costs may cancel that out.

Are they really much lower considering the additional cost of retro fitting power doors and retention loos?

 

[Darandio]

I find that hard to believe, considering they are 40 years old.

That suggests to me that you seem to believe that the older the stock, the cheaper it gets, it doesn't seem to work that way. ROSCO's have been creaming the TOC's for years with delapidated stock that has paid for itself time and time again.

 

[greyman42]

More importantly, none that aren't electrified (there are a couple of short sections of 125mph between Carstairs and Glasgow Central.

Is there not a section between Edinburgh and Dunbar?

 

[godfreycomplex]

Is there not a section between Edinburgh and Dunbar?

Several; in fact
The only non-EPS (221 or 390 with tilt enabled for the un-initiated) 125mph sections are Scotland are between Oxwellmains & Innerwick; Mungoswells & East Linton (with a 115mph section through Drem station) and Inveresk & Seaton Mains. For non-EPS stock I believe the maximum speed between Carstairs and Glasgow is 105mph at Shieldmuir

 

[najaB]

There is no 125mph track north of Carstairs on the WCML.

The SA says otherwise. I don't have it to hand but IIRC there is a stretch of 115/125EPS just before Motherwell.

Edit: Okay, downloaded the SA and I didn't remember correctly. It's 105mph for both EPS and HST. For some reason I thought it was 125EPS even though it was a ridiculously short section.

 

[godfreycomplex]

The SA says otherwise. I don't have it to hand but IIRC there is a stretch of 115/125EPS just before Motherwell.

Unfortunately not on the one I've got I'm afraid; 105 blanket from Gowkthrapple to opposide Shieldmuir RMT then 90/105 HST & EPS from there to the end of Motherwell platform; down road only.

 

[43096]

43127 & 145 are currently running up to Inverness on 0S44 Newcastle - Inverness: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O86757/2018/04/03/advanced

Are you sure it’s 43127/145 as 43145 was reported to be at Brush on Saturday. On the other hand there was a Chaddesden-Leicester move yesterday, which could have been 43140/149 plus set.

 

[ScottDarg]

Are you sure it’s 43127/145 as 43145 was reported to be at Brush on Saturday. On the other hand there was a Chaddesden-Leicester move yesterday, which could have been 43140/149 plus set.

Definitely 127/145 - pic on Flickr here: https://flic.kr/p/G8yYTk (only shows 145, but pics seen on Facebook confirm 127 is the rear PC)

The pair that moved to Inverness today were also photographed at Leicester on 29/03 (https://flic.kr/p/22TB7EA), and moved to Heaton this morning on this path: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R70111/2018/04/03/advanced

 

[43096]

Definitely 127/145 - pic on Flickr here: https://flic.kr/p/G8yYTk (only shows 145, but pics seen on Facebook confirm 127 is the rear PC)

The pair that moved to Inverness today were also photographed at Leicester on 29/03 (https://flic.kr/p/22TB7EA), and moved to Heaton this morning on this path: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R70111/2018/04/03/advanced

Thanks!

It's getting increasingly difficult to keep track of them!

 

[theblackwatch]

Thanks!

It's getting increasingly difficult to keep track of them!

Try keeping up with all the carriages too! I have a multi-coloured spreadsheet which I need to get updated on all the moves over the past few weeks, otherwise I'll lose track of where something is.

 

[43096]

Try keeping up with all the carriages too! I have a multi-coloured spreadsheet which I need to get updated on all the moves over the past few weeks, otherwise I'll lose track of where something is.

Good luck with that!

It's worse with the trailers because GWR are re-forming sets for handback so the formation of set X in traffic now isn't necessarily the formation it will be in when it goes off-lease. Worse, ScotRail are taking 4/5 car sets so 3 or 4 vehicles out of every GWR set go off lease. We know TGS and buffet vehicles aren't going and that TFs are; it's the TSs that are the confusion especially as some are going to Ely to await capacity at Doncaster.

 

[Mingulay]

Is this project on time? TS saying first services would be second half this year. May was the date for first service but that has now been diluted to less specific commitment. .

 

[theblackwatch]

Good luck with that!

It's worse with the trailers because GWR are re-forming sets for handback so the formation of set X in traffic now isn't necessarily the formation it will be in when it goes off-lease. Worse, ScotRail are taking 4/5 car sets so 3 or 4 vehicles out of every GWR set go off lease. We know TGS and buffet vehicles aren't going and that TFs are; it's the TSs that are the confusion especially as some are going to Ely to await capacity at Doncaster.

I've kept all the vehicles in their old formations, or I'd just lose track! See below for a couple of multi-coloured lines. As well as the ScotRail ones, there are the GWR 'GTi' sets thrown into the mix too. I may tackle the power cars at some point....

 

[Class83]

Could Scotrail use unrefurbished sets on the Fife Circle, guards/conductors are presumably trained to deal with slam doors, the route via Dunfermline must be cleared for HSTs as a diversion and it would free up some 158s/170s. Given the stock shortages, I doubt passengers would complain about a 5 car HST.

 

[gingertom]

Could Scotrail use unrefurbished sets on the Fife Circle, guards/conductors are presumably trained to deal with slam doors, the route via Dunfermline must be cleared for HSTs as a diversion and it would free up some 158s/170s. Given the stock shortages, I doubt passengers would complain about a 5 car HST.

indeed but perhaps there'd be a better chance of a seat with 6 mk2s and a '68?

 

[MatthewRead]

Could Scotrail use unrefurbished sets on the Fife Circle, guards/conductors are presumably trained to deal with slam doors, the route via Dunfermline must be cleared for HSTs as a diversion and it would free up some 158s/170s. Given the stock shortages, I doubt passengers would complain about a 5 car HST.

Good point they could potentially replace the 68/MK2 sets on the Fife Circle post 2020 in order to meet these supposedly essential regulations that come into force but since they were agreed by the EU and we are pulling out surely they should not matter anymore.

 

[43096]

I may tackle the power cars at some point....

View attachment 44763

I've kept all the vehicles in their old formations, or I'd just lose track! See below for a couple of multi-coloured lines. As well as the ScotRail ones, there are the GWR 'GTi' sets thrown into the mix too. I may tackle the power cars at some point....

View attachment 44763

I have a tracker for the power cars already - happy to share that to save you the time.

 

[najaB]

...these supposedly essential regulations that come into force but since they were agreed by the EU and we are pulling out surely they should not matter anymore.

I'm sure that the disabled and elderly will be happy to find out that they "don't matter" in post-Brexit Britain.

 

[Class83]

indeed but perhaps there'd be a better chance of a seat with 6 mk2s and a '68?

I was thinking in addition to the Loco Hauls, replace some 158s/170s as staff will already be trained to operate slam door stock on this route, unlike others. Should actually be able to operate 6 car HSTs though trailing power car would be off some platforms if there are enough carriages lying around.

Back on the main topic, when is the first fully refurbished set due to arrive in Scotland? Obviously just replacing the 170s on Edinburgh-Aberdeen would be a better plan.

 

[takno]

Good point they could potentially replace the 68/MK2 sets on the Fife Circle post 2020 in order to meet these supposedly essential regulations that come into force but since they were agreed by the EU and we are pulling out surely they should not matter anymore.

I don't think the DDA regulations were anything much to do with the EU were they? I thought they were just about the UK being a fundamentally decent country.

 

[gingertom]

I was thinking in addition to the Loco Hauls, replace some 158s/170s as staff will already be trained to operate slam door stock on this route, unlike others. Should actually be able to operate 6 car HSTs though trailing power car would be off some platforms if there are enough carriages lying around.

Back on the main topic, when is the first fully refurbished set due to arrive in Scotland? Obviously just replacing the 170s on Edinburgh-Aberdeen would be a better plan.

A pair of 2+4 sets is alleged to take over Edinburgh-Aberdeen in May. I'd hang on to the 170s they displace but I believe they are to be cascaded outwith ScotRail.

 

[Clansman]

Could Scotrail use unrefurbished sets on the Fife Circle, guards/conductors are presumably trained to deal with slam doors, the route via Dunfermline must be cleared for HSTs as a diversion and it would free up some 158s/170s. Given the stock shortages, I doubt passengers would complain about a 5 car HST.

In theory its probably slightly easier to have them on the Intercity runs based on crew training, given most guards at Perth/Dundee/Inverness/Aberdeen signed the Sleeper up until last August.

 

[mde]

Good point they could potentially replace the 68/MK2 sets on the Fife Circle post 2020 in order to meet these supposedly essential regulations that come into force but since they were agreed by the EU and we are pulling out surely they should not matter anymore.

I'm sure that the disabled and elderly will be happy to find out that they "don't matter" in post-Brexit Britain.

Quite. And even if we were moving back to the stone ages, the regs benefit more than just the disabled / differently abled (some people don’t necessarily class themselves as ‘disabled’ but do have a condition).

Returning to topic, would the circle really be the best use for HSTs?

 

[najaB]

Returning to topic, would the circle really be the best use for HSTs?

I don't think so, no. The Fife Circle is well suited to DMU operation as it's primarily a commuter route for Edinburgh

 

[43096]

I don't think the DDA regulations were anything much to do with the EU were they? I thought they were just about the UK being a fundamentally decent country.

But the standard is not DDA, it’s the PRM (Persons of Reduced Mobility) TSI (Technical Standard for Interoperability) which is an EU standard.

Whatever, Brexit is irrelevant as all EU standards are being incorporated into British law for when we leave.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the standard is not DDA, it’s the PRM (Persons of Reduced Mobility) TSI (Technical Standard for Interoperability) which is an EU standard.

Whatever, Brexit is irrelevant as all EU standards are being incorporated into British law for when we leave.

And in any case the UK has, if I recall correctly, gone stricter than the EU. Under the EU Directive, PRM TSI applies ONLY to new stock, the UK has unilaterally applied it to all stock from 2020.

 

[marks87]

A sneak preview of the outside of a refurbished coach from Alex Hynes on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/AlexHynes/status/982288432327163904

 

[mallard]

These two just made an appearance at Leicester...

 

[fgwrich]

Good luck with that!

It's worse with the trailers because GWR are re-forming sets for handback so the formation of set X in traffic now isn't necessarily the formation it will be in when it goes off-lease. Worse, ScotRail are taking 4/5 car sets so 3 or 4 vehicles out of every GWR set go off lease. We know TGS and buffet vehicles aren't going and that TFs are; it's the TSs that are the confusion especially as some are going to Ely to await capacity at Doncaster.

Indeed so. In fact I've noticed quite a few of the GW sets are rather all over the place at the moment. One set in particular has had a declassified TF in place of Coach B since at least December, while one has a TRFB the wrong way around, while another today has a TRFB, TC,TF all in the formation with the TC the wrong way around as well. Im not sure if the last set even had a Mini Buffet in it or a 425XX.