Which will more successful - D-Train or Flex?

[507021]

Hi all,

It's been really interesting to read the discussions about both types on the forum since they were announced, however I thought it would be interesting to see which one forum members will be more successful.

I'm personally not sure at the moment. As much as I like both ideas, I think I'll wait until I've sampled both types in service before deciding.

I'm looking forward to seeing what others think.

 

[dgl]

I reckon D-Train not because it is necessarily a better product but that it is semi-proven to work (assuming all fuel lines are adequately tightened ) and that it can be/ is being used as a test bed for future ideas rather than just being a klutz to make up for the lack of electrification.
Plus if the D-Train can be cheap enough it might be able to support more branch line re-openings/heritage main line operations which is always a good thing.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They aren't really competing for the same markets: the D-78s for rural or suburban branch lines, and the 319-flex being more for main-line stopping/semi-fast services.

The scope for the 230s is limited by the 60mph thing so I've voted 769 simply because there are more problems that they could be solutions for.

That's without going into the differences about power-sources/seating density/colour of the loo-roll holders, as that's been done to death on other threads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

769, because there are more contexts for which it is suited - mainline as well as branch line - and it is a bi-mode rather than a DMU.

 

[hexagon789]

769 - as others note it's bi-mode which is both extra useful avd preferred these days. It's suitable for commuter, branch even mainline semi-fast work I dare say and isn't hampered by a 60 mph limit either. It also has greater capacity and room.

The D-train isn't a bad idea, it's just the 769 is a better one.

 

[gingertom]

769 - as others note it's bi-mode which is both extra useful avd preferred these days. It's suitable for commuter, branch even mainline semi-fast work I dare say and isn't hampered by a 60 mph limit either. It also has greater capacity and room.

The D-train isn't a bad idea, it's just the 769 is a better one.

there's a place for both. Just not the same place.

 

[hexagon789]

there's a place for both. Just not the same place.

Perhaps, I'm just not convinced that there' something the D-Train can do that the 769 Flex can't.

 

[gingertom]

Perhaps, I'm just not convinced that there' something the D-Train can do that the 769 Flex can't.

0-60 in a competitive time. I think the 769 will be underpowered on diesel for any sort of performance and up to 60 the 230 will win hands down. Also 4 car sets will be overkill for some routes. I do agree though, that more opportunities will present for the 769 than the 230.
I'm not a great fan of bi-mode as it is stifling investment in the roll-out of the far superior OLE.

 

[hexagon789]

0-60 in a competitive time. I think the 769 will be underpowered on diesel for any sort of performance and up to 60 the 230 will win hands down. Also 4 car sets will be overkill for some routes. I do agree though, that more opportunities will present for the 769 than the 230.
I'm not a great fan of bi-mode as it is stifling investment in the roll-out of the far superior OLE.

Is the 769 even being designed to do 100 on diesel?

I would prefer full electrification as well, but the 769 seems a better compromise until that happens.

 

[eastwestdivide]

What's your definition of "success"?

 

[gingertom]

Is the 769 even being designed to do 100 on diesel?

I would prefer full electrification as well, but the 769 seems a better compromise until that happens.

no it's allegedly 90mph. The pair of MAN diesel engines together can only supply about 2/3 the power available on electric.

 

[hexagon789]

no it's allegedly 90mph. The pair of MAN diesel engines together can only supply about 2/3 the power available on electric.

There's not much non-electrified 100 mph running in Northern territory anyway if I remember, it's generally 90 or less on the faster routes.

 

[humbersidejim]

I'll give the Flex my vote when I've seen one move in public

(Rumoured to be on the Great Central, soon?)

 

[coppercapped]

Hi all,

It's been really interesting to read the discussions about both types on the forum since they were announced, however I thought it would be interesting to see which one forum members will be more successful.

I'm personally not sure at the moment. As much as I like both ideas, I think I'll wait until I've sampled both types in service before deciding.

I'm looking forward to seeing what others think.

What do you mean by 'successful'?

 

[DenmarkRail]

Given that none of them are in regular service yet, it is too early to call.

 

[rebmcr]

769, simply because it's got an established large corporation pushing it.

 

[507021]

What do you mean by 'successful'?

Which one do you think will work and receive the most orders?

 

[Rail Blues]

Class 230 by virtue of the fact it exists and runs.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Truthfully it probably depends on the number of marginal constituencies in the areas where either might deploy. More marginals will mean new trains even if that means fewer seats, more overcrowding and so on.

 

[The Ham]

Which one do you think will work and receive the most orders?

Work? Both could do.

Most orders? Is this most coaches or most units? As that could alter the answer as there's 300 coaches that were brought for the 230 project whilst there's something like 350 coaches in the 319 fleet.

Whilst based on 2 coach units there could be up to 150 class 230's compared to the 89 for the 319's.

As this currently stand (by either measure) the 769 looks the better one to back.

 

[keith1879]

The class 230 was a solution to a problem that seems to have ceased to exist (the lack of available new DMUs to buy). The 769 in theory addresses an issue of today ( a growing surplus of usable EMUs with insufficient wires to run under). On the other hand the 230 does seem to be close to a proven product (I stress "close to") whereas the 769 hasn't even turned a wheel yet.

 

[HLE]

Class 230 by virtue of the fact it exists and runs.

Exactly. Vivarail are a company that has one goal - refurbing 230’s. Millions will have been spent on the project. Those that own and run the company are only focused on getting the different types up and running, and getting the orders in.

Porterbrook are primarily a leasing company as I understand it. If it doesn’t take off, or if teething troubles crop up like on the 230 then you may well find the project will be cancelled much more quickly than Vivarail.

 

[D365]

Exactly. Vivarail are a company that has one goal - refurbing 230’s. Millions will have been spent on the project. Those that own and run the company are only focused on getting the different types up and running, and getting the orders in.

Exactly, look at how quickly Angel Trains gave up on 317722.

For one thing, I am certainly very interested in the development going into the "B-Train". Especially if there's something in it that could be relevant to a dissertation...

 

[js1000]

More "successful"? At risk of being a pariah on here can I say neither?

The 60mph D trains are a posh old tram rolled up in glitter. I'm all for re-using old trains but when you have 323s and 332s (latter need upgrading admittedly but not impossible) potentially going for scrap in a couple of years and you're re-using smaller, slower dinky London Underground trains from the 1970s it makes you want to smash your head against a wall. It's decisions like this that is why ordinary people feel the railways do not offer value for money or are administered in the best interests of passengers.

I still think the 769 Flex will be fraught with difficulties and will not work. There are reasons we don't make existing petrol vehicles into hybrids, because it's complicated. I'm really not looking forward to using them on the Alderley Edge to Wigan service. Poor acceleration is already a problem and even if they do start to actually turn their wheels there is no guarantee they will be reliable once in service. I reckon they'll get into service but will have so many breakdowns and problems that TOCs will just give up.

Some have alluded to on here that a realistic possibility exists that Porterbrook may just have to bite the bullet buy new purpose built bi-modal trains come 2020 when the 769s cannot provide a reliable service. Both are daft ideas.

 

[Domh245]

The 60mph D trains are a posh old tram rolled up in glitter. I'm all for re-using old trains but when you have 323s and 332s (latter need upgrading admittedly but not impossible) potentially going for scrap in a couple of years and you're re-using smaller, slower dinky London Underground trains from the 1970s it makes you want to smash your head against a wall. It's decisions like this that is why ordinary people feel the railways do not offer value for money or are administered in the best interests of passengers.

I still think the 769 Flex will be fraught with difficulties and will not work. There are reasons we don't make existing petrol vehicles into hybrids, because it's complicated. I'm really not looking forward to using them on the Alderley Edge to Wigan service. Poor acceleration is already a problem and even if they do start to actually turn their wheels there is no guarantee they will be reliable once in service. I reckon they'll get into service but will have so many breakdowns and problems that TOCs will just give up

Few points to pick up on in this.
1) Both of those stocks need upgrades, 323s need PRM, 332s need safety systems. In both cases as well we don't know sort of condition either is in but the 332s don't seem to be in a great condition.
2) D stock are full size trains, they aren't 'dinky' they're near enough the same size as every other mainline train.
3) you are correct about not turning old petrol cars into electric ones, but that is because it involves replacing the entirety of the drivetrain. These projects are considerably 'easier' because the actual drivetrain currently installed remains almost exactly as it is*, they just develop something that can produce something similar to the third or fourth rail supply that the traction equipment expects.

*At least on the 769 and the first iteration of the 230, which they've since changed so that they can do regenerative braking and so on.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The D Train only as we have seen one in the flesh so to speak.