NR late notice Weekday TT changes on SWML April - June 2018

[gareth950]

https://m.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/south-wales-mainline-modernisation/

ATW have just announced late timetable changes to weekday services from 23rd April over 3 months. No trains Cwmbran - Cardiff and/or Newport - Cardiff and complete bus replacement on some weeks Ebbw Vale - Cardiff.
Network Rail won't be releasing the amended timetables or bus replacement timetables until 2 weeks in advance.
Is the the norm from NR now? I bought an Advance ticket in early February for what I thought would be a direct journey from Llandudno - Cardiff on 23rd April, but now I won't find out how it's disrupted until 9th April at the earliest.
I'm not objecting to the work being done but NR only communicating amended TT's two weeks in advance is unacceptable surely? Not just for passengers but for TOCs attempting to plan services as well?

 

[Phil from Mon]

That’s major isn’t it? Hope I’ve no need to be in Cardiff through that period.

 

[gareth950]

My mistake, there are limited trains Cardiff - Newport, so the weekday closures are Newport - Cwmbran affecting Marches services.
I wasn't aware of any re-signalling or electrification work Newport - Cwmbran?

And Ebbw Vale passengers will love getting lumped with buses for no eventual benefit to them at all.

 

[185143]

When did only announcing projects 4 weeks before and refusing to release any timetables more than 2 weeks before become acceptable?

This is clearly a major project-I simply refuse to accept Network Rail had no knowledge of this until now...

 

[gareth950]

ATW have confirmed tonight that amended timetables will only be confirmed FIVE days before each impacted week!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

When did only announcing projects 4 weeks before and refusing to release any timetables more than 2 weeks before become acceptable?

This is clearly a major project-I simply refuse to accept Network Rail had no knowledge of this until now...

Might I say that you’ve clearly been away from the Western region for the past couple of years!

Incidentally NR agree line closures with the TOCs who then generally coordinate their timetable plans. Network Rail compiles it all and puts the big rubber stamp on it. It’s not as if the TOCs are sitting around without any timetable at all until NR get around to providing it.

 

[The Planner]

When did only announcing projects 4 weeks before and refusing to release any timetables more than 2 weeks before become acceptable?

This is clearly a major project-I simply refuse to accept Network Rail had no knowledge of this until now...

Network Rail obviously knew about it, but unless whoever is delivering that project tells us what is required or what is going on what do we do? We cannot go on a hunch can we? The North West being a case in point.

 

[Dhassell]

That is terrible! I have already booked tickets with ATW for that line during the time it is shut! I hope restrictions on these tickets are relaxed!

 

[gareth950]

Network Rail obviously knew about it, but unless whoever is delivering that project tells us what is required or what is going on what do we do? We cannot go on a hunch can we? The North West being a case in point.

So who is responsible for the fact that amended timetables will only be available five days before each impacted week? NR? ATW? Or both?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Ultimately this will be related to the suspension of "Informed Traveller" (T-12) for the May timetable change, which was announced back at the end of February (Rail Delivery Group Press Release is here) and covered by a thread at the time.

The short version is that TOCs/NR are aiming for confirmed timetables at T-6 (i.e. 6 weeks before the date of travel), but in some cases it may be shorter notice. Evidently this is one of those cases.

 

[gareth950]

Ultimately this will be related to the suspension of "Informed Traveller" (T-12) for the May timetable change, which was announced back at the end of February (Rail Delivery Group Press Release is here) and covered by a thread at the time.

The short version is that TOCs/NR are aiming for confirmed timetables at T-6 (i.e. 6 weeks before the date of travel), but in some cases it may be shorter notice. Evidently this is one of those cases.

Umm, like 5 days notice? Come on, it's not acceptable. I've got a trip up to north Wales on Friday 20th April that's unaffected, but I won't find out how my return journey is affected on Monday 23rd until the day before I'm due to do my outward journey.

 

[The Planner]

So who is responsible for the fact that amended timetables will only be available five days before each impacted week? NR? ATW? Or both?

Both.

 

[embers25]

So who is responsible for the fact that amended timetables will only be available five days before each impacted week? NR? ATW? Or both?

Try living in SWR land where we often find out weekend times only the day or so before and on a couple of weekends none of the replacement buses were loaded into the system at all leaving it looking like Woking had no service all day!! Saying that, Woking without a service is pretty much par for the course most days on SWR!

 

[PHILIPE]

ATW Twitter being bombarded with calls from punters asking for info, saying "I've got an advance booking on this train or that". Being told unable to provide info yet.

 

[Dhassell]

ATW Twitter being bombarded with calls from punters asking for info, saying "I've got an advance booking on this train or that". Being told unable to provide info yet.

One of those was me .

 

[philjo]

I have to be in Abergavenny for a fixed time on Friday 4 May as there are several of us on a walking group pick up from the station at 1 pm for transport to Brecon. I have an advanced single for a fixed train from Paddington to Newport then change. It looks like buses from Newport to Cwmbran that week. Is there any word about ticket acceptance _ e.g can I change it to go via Euston, Birmingham & Hereford or get the much earlier Hereford service from Paddington?

 

[gareth950]

I have to be in Abergavenny for a fixed time on Friday 4 May as there are several of us on a walking group pick up from the station at 1 pm for transport to Brecon. I have an advanced single for a fixed train from Paddington to Newport then change. It looks like buses from Newport to Cwmbran that week. Is there any word about ticket acceptance _ e.g can I change it to go via Euston, Birmingham & Hereford or get the much earlier Hereford service from Paddington?

From the FAQs: https://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/south-wales-mainline-modernisation/

Will my ticket be valid on different routes?
Yes, we have agreed ticket acceptance with GWR, and Cross Country to ensure the maximum number of alternative routes are available.

 

[30907]

Ticket restrictions should be relaxed in the circumstances.
You are perfectly entitled to take an earlier train to get you there by 1pm, but I would think it wise to contact GWR on Twitter for confirmation when you know which train you need.
They would probably be happy with the 0821 via Hereford if you suggest it.
I predict neither Virgin nor LNW/WMT would accept a GW advance (though it is a permitted route for walk-up tickets), but you never know....

 

[philjo]

Thanks

 

[js1000]

ATW have confirmed tonight that amended timetables will only be confirmed FIVE days before each impacted week!

Joke!

 

[nedchester]

So who is responsible for the fact that amended timetables will only be available five days before each impacted week? NR? ATW? Or both?

The TOCs have been given very late notice of these changes by NR and cannot just magic a timetable out of nowhere.

 

[gareth950]

Joke!

Unfortunately it's not a joke.

 

[infobleep]

The TOCs have been given very late notice of these changes by NR and cannot just magic a timetable out of nowhere.

How long do TOCs need to create timetable?

For example the other week South Western Railway had PDF timetables for the weekend engineering works up in advance. At least two days in advance from memory but the actual times were not loaded into the journey planner until gone 2am on the Saturday morning they applied.

South Western Railway did have a disruption notice on the online journey planner saying the journey planner was wrong. They also had a separate notice about the works.

Alas someone took down the journey planner being wrong notice but didn't amend the engineering works notice to say the journey planner was wrong. Hence a friend thought the times online were correct when I knew they were not.

 

[TUC]

When will he DfT recognise how unacceptable this is and place Network Rail in breach. This is both incompetence and reflect an organisation that had lost sight of the fact that it only exists to serve the needs of TOCs and passengers, not to meet what is convenient for its internal disorganisation.

 

[PHILIPE]

A little more notice when a few months ago, Network Rail decided to impose a full weekend blockade at Reading in the middle of the week. Travel details were not available to systems until the Friday.

 

[nedchester]

How long do TOCs need to create timetable?

For example the other week South Western Railway had PDF timetables for the weekend engineering works up in advance. At least two days in advance from memory but the actual times were not loaded into the journey planner until gone 2am on the Saturday morning they applied.

South Western Railway did have a disruption notice on the online journey planner saying the journey planner was wrong. They also had a separate notice about the works.

Alas someone took down the journey planner being wrong notice but didn't amend the engineering works notice to say the journey planner was wrong. Hence a friend thought the times online were correct when I knew they were not.

It's not as easy as you might think especially in a multi-TOC environment.

It's not just a matter of terminating trains short but in the ATW example they have to coordinate with the other operators and if trains are for example just using relief lines / only certain platforms at stations it makes it especially difficult.

Even once a plan is formulated it has to be submitted to NR who will produce the final compliant timetable.

 

[infobleep]

It's not as easy as you might think especially in a multi-TOC environment.

It's not just a matter of terminating trains short but in the ATW example they have to coordinate with the other operators and if trains are for example just using relief lines / only certain platforms at stations it makes it especially difficult.

Even once a plan is formulated it has to be submitted to NR who will produce the final compliant timetable.

Ok so are all changes in the timetable inputted by NR? Do they also feed that back to the CIS? I know someone who use to work for a TOC updating departure screens. Engineering works were done overnight I was told.

This was some years ago though and things may well have changed of course.

 

[nedchester]

Ok so are all changes in the timetable inputted by NR? Do they also feed that back to the CIS? I know someone who use to work for a TOC updating departure screens. Engineering works were done overnight I was told.

This was some years ago though and things may well have changed of course.

NR has the final say on the timetable as it needs to address, as much as possible, the requirements of the relevant operators along the route. There’s a fair few of them in South Wales!

 

[LAX54]

When will he DfT recognise how unacceptable this is and place Network Rail in breach. This is both incompetence and reflect an organisation that had lost sight of the fact that it only exists to serve the needs of TOCs and passengers, not to meet what is convenient for its internal disorganisation.

TOCs need to tell NR what they want, or would like to run, although they seem to leave that as long as they can before submitting, if its on one TOC on the line its straight forward, but get multi-TOC and all 'bumping' into each other, it can take time to sort it all out and give a fair deal to all, I suppose it needs someone to tell the TOCs to buck their ideas up !
Maybe its NR who should be telling the TOC what it can run and when ?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Following normal processes it takes about 20 weeks to properly plan an amended timetable. However this gives Network Rail 4 weeks to compile the various amendments submitted by different operators, followed by several weeks of responses / counter-responses bouncing back and forth to resolve inter-TOC clashes, errors and changes to the plan. It is very much an organic process which evolves over time. What’s key is that it is a negotiation, with multiple competing agendas, and every problem requires some backtracking and rethinking of plans.

Closer to the date (say T-6 weeks ideally) the TOCs will be doing detailed rolling stock diagramming work, it is a huge job to manually rewrite a large number of diagrams, change the cycling and calculate the knock on impacts such as maintenance requirements, etc.
From about T-4 the changes to crew diagrams are compiled. This requires a certain level of completeness to all the above activities.
At about T-2 the rostering of individual crews are being completed for the week in question, so the amendments are integrated at this stage. Legally binding working hours (ie guaranteed book on / off times ) for train crew are finalised about 4-5 days before the operating date.

What NR are forcing here is a seriously rushed job to a massively compressed schedule. All these activities must still be completed, but at the same time. So crew diagrams are being written while the final timetable is still up in the air. Late changes to the details of the possession (which ALWAYS seem to happen) will scupper critical diagramming, which has countless knock on effects. Crew diagrams probably end up getting reissued multiple times, the final version probably missing the rostering deadlines. The TOCs end up having major hassle convincing crew to change their hours, to operate the hastily thrown together timetable which probably has systemic errors / flaws due to lack of thinking time.

And of course customers are majorly inconvenienced, revenue suffers, chances are the RMT and ASLEF will end up getting annoyed at the way their staff are treated (though a TSSA rarely protest at the management overtime prior to the event!) and everyone goes home unhappy.

Then of course there’s the prolonged post-mortem when it’s all gone wrong on the day. And guess what, NR might just have failed to complete the work so we’ve got to do it all over again next weekend, so kindly rewrite everything again in 5 days this time, won’t you? Otherwise you won’t get your shiny new electric railway next January...

Basically, welcome to GWEP.