Advance Tickets - 'next available service' by which TOC?

[Baxenden Bank]

I know we have covered this a number of times in general terms, but I was wondering what people's opinions are on the following, specific, real-life journey.

I had an Advance (one through ticket, not split) from Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester (Virgin), Manchester to Edinburgh (TPE), Edinburgh to Helensburgh (Scotrail). The connection at Manchester was 11 minutes and was missed by a late arrival into Manchester. The ticket was routed 'VTWC and connections'.

Should I have;

• waited for the next TPE service to Edinburgh (next service by the same TOC for that leg of the journey) involving a 2 hour wait at Manchester but following the booked itinerary to the letter.
• waited for the next TPE service and travel via Glasgow instead (next service by the same TOC) involving a 1 hour wait at Manchester and a deviation from the booked itinerary Carstairs - Glasgow Central - Glasgow Queen Street low level, then re-join booked itinerary. Possibly arriving into Helensburgh earlier than booked due to the shorter route via Glasgow.
• taken the next available services by any permitted route and any TOC to reach my destination?

My basic understanding is that, if you have a TOC specific ticket, you have to catch the next available service provided by that TOC and no other, unless specific circumstances apply e.g. very limited service by that TOC, missed last train of the day by that TOC, disruption where ticket acceptance is in place.

It is the routeing 'VTWC and connections' which adds interest to the mix. Having travelled on the correct, but slightly delayed, VTWC service from Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester does 'and connections' then allow me to travel on any onward service, by any TOC, on any permitted route until my destination is achieved?

As additional information the missed train was 1215 off Manchester Piccadilly.

In practice I caught the next available service Manchester to Preston (Northern - no ticket check) and the next available service to Haymarket (Virgin - one ticket check 'any unchecked tickets' but I just kept my head down). Having bailed at Haymarket instead of Edinburgh I was able to catch the next Helensburgh train to that on my booked itinerary so arrived only 29 minutes late! A saving to me in terms of time, and to Virgin in terms of Delay Repay, but was I naughty catching the Northern train and naughty again changing at Haymarket?

In contrast to a couple of threads running at the moment I will NOT be submitting a claim for Delay Repay based on my theoretical delay compared to my actual delay because that is WRONG.

 

[AlterEgo]

You may use any appropriate train (which cannot be reserved) on the +connections leg.

It is not clear how enforceable the (which cannot be reserved) part of that is.

 

[robbeech]

One suitable course of action would be to ask station staff. You may find it useful to have your ticket endorsed or further written confirmation of a change of route if you have reservations for part of the journey. I would not think a TPE guard would have a problem with a deviation to Glasgow but it would be wise to ask before you board. Permission by railway staff is all you need, but written confirmation would potentially save hassle.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

One suitable course of action would be to ask station staff. You may find it useful to have your ticket endorsed or further written confirmation of a change of route if you have reservations for part of the journey. I would not think a TPE guard would have a problem with a deviation to Glasgow but it would be wise to ask before you board. Permission by railway staff is all you need, but written confirmation would potentially save hassle.

That was part of the problem on the day. The Virgin train for Edinburgh leaves Preston a few minutes before the TPE train to Glasgow (which I could, perhaps should, have caught from Manchester). Had I waited to ask the TPE guard (at Manchester or Preston), and been refused travel via Glasgow, I would have been on the next TPE to Edinburgh, thus generating the two hour delay I wanted to avoid.

 

[robbeech]

Yes, i see. Perhaps you could have asked the Virgin guard, but i appreciate the issue here.
Unfortunately what is and isn't valid may not be fully understood or admitted by a minority of railway staff so you may get conflicting advice. Of course, if a guard says "yes you can board this train" then that is fine. Just be aware of crew changes and full ticket checks (although in this instance they frequently happen at Preston).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Yes, i see. Perhaps you could have asked the Virgin guard, but i appreciate the issue here.
Unfortunately what is and isn't valid may not be fully understood or admitted by a minority of railway staff so you may get conflicting advice. Of course, if a guard says "yes you can board this train" then that is fine. Just be aware of crew changes and full ticket checks (although in this instance they frequently happen at Preston).

I would generally ask a guard before boarding his train but am less convinced of asking other staff, because of the risk of 'x told me I could travel' with no proof of who 'x' was and whether 'x' had said anything of the kind. Guards, ticket examiners and revenue protection get that line all the time and are right to have their doubts! Depends on the circumstances and passing the 'attitude' test.

Written endorsement of tickets requires time and effort on both sides - were the Virgin office still open on the concourse at Piccadilly I may well have spoken to them for a written endorsement.

Speaking to the Virgin guard before boarding at Preston would be more difficult due to the staff changeover there.

 

[yorkie]

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer, though when seeking advice, there will be better or worse answers, depending on the factors involved (e.g. is the priority to get a seat, or to minimise delay, or to minimise interchanges; this may depend on the nature and quantity of the passengers and their needs).

was I naughty catching the Northern train

No.

and naughty again changing at Haymarket?

Certainly not.

In fact, it would potentially make a Delay Repay claim more contentious if you did an unnecessary double-back if that caused you to miss the next available service to your destination.

I would generally ask a guard before boarding his train but am less convinced of asking other staff, because of the risk of 'x told me I could travel' with no proof of who 'x' was and whether 'x' had said anything of the kind.

If I wanted permission to do something I would seek advice from the ticket office (or information points) and if they said yes, I would do it. If they said no, I would ask train staff anyway.

Guards, ticket examiners and revenue protection get that line all the time and are right to have their doubts! Depends on the circumstances and passing the 'attitude' test.

If you've been authorised to take a particular train, then the on-board staff can't waive those rights.

Written endorsement of tickets requires time and effort on both sides - were the Virgin office still open on the concourse at Piccadilly I may well have spoken to them for a written endorsement.

I'd seek staff at the station if I had time to do so and if I felt that it was potentially beneficial for me to do so.

Speaking to the Virgin guard before boarding at Preston would be more difficult due to the staff changeover there.

I'd have thought that would potentially make it easier, because they'd be there before the train arrives.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I'd seek staff at the station if I had time to do so and if I felt that it was potentially beneficial for me to do so.

Obviously I made the decisions on the day based on the knowledge I had (no smart phone for on the move travel info or tweeting customer services) and what seemed most beneficial to me - a train in the platform is worth two on the line!

I'd have thought that would potentially make it easier, because they'd be there before the train arrives.

I appreciate there is a fundamental fault in my argument between generally asking a guard and my actually doing so. The scrum at Platform 14 at Piccadilly and my desire for a seat is my only defence for the Northern train. And as for Preston, a Pendolino is a long train and I wanted a seat next to the window in a facing direction more than I wanted to check my ticket validity! Had I been doing something less obviously reasonable (to me), such as going off-route, asking the guard would move up the list of priorities.

Knowing to alight short at Haymarket requires a knowledge of the network / timetable most passengers would not have. For example that both services call there and that the Helensburgh service is every half hour. I would contest strongly any refusal of Delay Repay due to me not having an encyclopaedic of the rail network. Continuing to Edinburgh, as printed on my tickets / booking confirmation would be the 'correct' thing to do. Continuing to Edinburgh and doing a double back if my itinerary did not say that would be 'incorrect'.

I found it interesting that, when booking the tickets, some TOC sites said change at Edinburgh and some at Haymarket for the same trains. Also interesting that it offered via either, presumably it is to avoid a walk/bus between the two Glasgow stations, but that can also be done via Glasgow Central low level, an option offered at other times.

 

[yorkie]

Obviously I made the decisions on the day based on the knowledge I had (no smart phone for on the move travel info or tweeting customer services) and what seemed most beneficial to me - a train in the platform is worth two on the line!

I appreciate there is a fundamental fault in my argument between generally asking a guard and my actually doing so. The scrum at Platform 14 at Piccadilly and my desire for a seat is my only defence for the Northern train.

Taking the first available train to Preston seems a sensible idea and I agree one should simply board it without delay if one is due.

And as for Preston, a Pendolino is a long train and I wanted a seat next to the window in a facing direction more than I wanted to check my ticket validity! Had I been doing something less obviously reasonable (to me), such as going off-route, asking the guard would move up the list of priorities.

I don't know how long you had at Preston, but if you are saying that there was sufficient time to catch the next available train but not sufficient time to seek advice (at least not without compromising your ability to get a decent seat) and that you were confident it was the best journey opportunity, then given that it was the named 'main' TOC on your ticket restriction, I would agree there is no 'requirement' to ask and you can simply board.

Knowing to alight short at Haymarket requires a knowledge of the network / timetable most passengers would not have. For example that both services call there and that the Helensburgh service is every half hour. I would contest strongly any refusal of Delay Repay due to me not having an encyclopaedic of the rail network. Continuing to Edinburgh, as printed on my tickets / booking confirmation would be the 'correct' thing to do. Continuing to Edinburgh and doing a double back if my itinerary did not say that would be 'incorrect'.

But it could be argued that anyone who did not have good knowledge would have sought advice at some point. You agree you had an opportunity to talk with the Guard on that train. Most people who were not confident would have sought advice. The Guard would then have confirmed to change at Haymarket.

I do not agree it would be appropriate to ignore the Guard and then to do an unnecessary double-back.

I found it interesting that, when booking the tickets, some TOC sites said change at Edinburgh and some at Haymarket for the same trains.

If the itinerary would be the same, then booking engines may well suggest Edinburgh Waverley as it has the most facilities and may give you a better chance of a seat on some services.

When delays occur, anyone who is not confident would ask staff advice, who would advise changing at Haymarket if that saved time.

Also interesting that it offered via either, presumably it is to avoid a walk/bus between the two Glasgow stations, but that can also be done via Glasgow Central low level, an option offered at other times.

Some booking engines let you specify changing at and avoid locations to customise the itinerary to one that suits you, if you wish.

 

[jfisher21]

i am suprised you can get a stoke - helensburgh ticket via wcml edinburgh - its a big detour. I would have just got first trains to preston, glasgow central, dalmuir, helensburgh.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

i am suprised you can get a stoke - helensburgh ticket via wcml edinburgh - its a big detour. I would have just got first trains to preston, glasgow central, dalmuir, helensburgh.

So was I. I haven't been that way for a while so went for it as the times were convenient.