Penalty Fares / Compulsory Ticket Area?

[telstarbox]

Last night I was meeting someone off a train at a Penalty Fares station in London. This station is unbarriered and the platforms are above street level so I went up the stairs and waited on the platform.

I wasn't intending to travel and the Penalty Fares posters I saw refer to "your journey" which to my mind didn't exist.

There were no staff about but if say a revenue block had started while I was waiting, would I have been at risk i.e. is the platform automatically a Compulsory Ticket Area?

 

[221129]

Last night I was meeting someone off a train at a Penalty Fares station in London. This station is unbarriered and the platforms are above street level so I went up the stairs and waited on the platform.

I wasn't intending to travel and the Penalty Fares posters I saw refer to "your journey" which to my mind didn't exist.

There were no staff about but if say a revenue block had started while I was waiting, would I have been at risk i.e. is the platform automatically a Compulsory Ticket Area?

Depends which station it was...

 

[MG11]

Were there signs that designated the area a compulsory ticket area? I know Nottingham place posters up denoting the compulsory ticket area when they do stings on the bridge. I'd say proceeding beyond the ticket purchasing point i.e. going inwards of the ticket office, could be perceived as attempting to travel without a valid ticket, it depends on what the Revenue Protection Officer believes your intentions are though. Did the station you were at sell Platform Tickets?

 

[swt_passenger]

To answer the original question a National Rail penalty fare scheme does NOT automatically imply a CTA. Any CTA will have to be separately marked, so if you didn’t pass any signs, it wouldn’t be a CTA.

 

[swt_passenger]

Were there signs that designated the area a compulsory ticket area? I know Nottingham place posters up denoting the compulsory ticket area when they do stings on the bridge. I'd say proceeding beyond the ticket purchasing point i.e. going inwards of the ticket office, could be perceived as attempting to travel without a valid ticket, it depends on what the Revenue Protection Officer believes your intentions are though. Did the station you were at sell Platform Tickets?

Back in 2014 an FOI request ascertained that Nottingham did not have a CTA. Has that changed since?

 

[MG11]

Back in 2014 an FOI request ascertained that Nottingham did not have a CTA. Has that changed since?

In December 2014, I saw first hand a poster on the platform which stated 'Compulsory Ticket Area'. Could it be your FOI Request was relating exclusively to the bridge?

 

[221129]

Nottingham is NOT a compulsory ticket area. Any signs that state otherwise are incorrect.

 

[swt_passenger]

In December 2014, I saw first hand a poster on the platform which stated 'Compulsory Ticket Area'. Could it be your FOI Request was relating exclusively to the bridge?

Not my request, I just remembered it from a previous discussion, there was some confusion about the status at that time.

 

[yorkie]

In December 2014, I saw first hand a poster on the platform which stated 'Compulsory Ticket Area'. Could it be your FOI Request was relating exclusively to the bridge?

If you see any evidence of this in future, please do let us know, as it would be unlawful.

 

[yorkie]

... is the platform automatically a Compulsory Ticket Area?

No, it is only if it is designated as a CTA. I know, for example, TfL are keen on CTAs and London Overground stations typically have red lines marking the edge of the CTA. Without knowing which station it was, it's difficult to say.

 

[swt_passenger]

Am I right to remember that at one time the NRES individual station info pages had a line for CTA yes/no?

 

[AlterEgo]

Am I right to remember that at one time the NRES individual station info pages had a line for CTA yes/no?

If it did, it was a long time ago. I can’t recall one and I started working on the railway in 2011.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In simple terms, before commencing a 'revenue block' at a Penalty Fare station they should do a sweep of the station area about to be blocked to see if there is anyone there currently. Basically wait until a train has stopped and its passengers left the station then check that the platform/s are empty (or note anyone legitimately there). Obviously not that simple at a major station but easy enough at a less well used two platform station.

At a Compulsory Ticket Area station, you should always have a ticket (or permission). Section 2 of the rules defines 'any person leaving the station' as a 'person in need of a ticket' regardless of whether they have travelled. Hence the need for clear signage and in London area, red lines to mark the area.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Were there signs that designated the area a compulsory ticket area? I know Nottingham place posters up denoting the compulsory ticket area when they do stings on the bridge. I'd say proceeding beyond the ticket purchasing point i.e. going inwards of the ticket office, could be perceived as attempting to travel without a valid ticket, it depends on what the Revenue Protection Officer believes your intentions are though. Did the station you were at sell Platform Tickets?

Is that the bridge which is a Public Right of Way? In which case it cannot possibly be a Compulsory Ticket Area, nor can anyone insist on you showing them a ticket - unless you have been seen coming up the steps from the platform (which are not a PROW). I also don't understand how they could possibly close it for a 'sting' without an official (presumably temporary) highway closure order. That is why there are no barriers on it. Yes a glaring loophole even better than the lift at Manchester Piccadilly!

 

[MG11]

Is that the bridge which is a Public Right of Way? In which case it cannot possibly be a Compulsory Ticket Area, nor can anyone insist on you showing them a ticket - unless you have been seen coming up the steps from the platform (which are not a PROW). I also don't understand how they could possibly close it for a 'sting' without an official (presumably temporary) highway closure order. That is why there are no barriers on it. Yes a glaring loophole even better than the lift at Manchester Piccadilly!

Well at another EMT station, Sheffield, when they do stings on the bridge, they issue a pass token to those who want to pass through, that way anyone trying to exit at the other end without a token, must have come from a platform and therefore must have come off a train. Back to your earlier point though, the sign I noticed was on the platform, near the Pumpkin Cafe Bar. I imagine the Revenue managers will have examined this with a fine toothcombe though, they tend to be very knowledgeable, compared to some other Rev Pro departments.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Well at another EMT station, Sheffield, when they do stings on the bridge, they issue a pass token to those who want to pass through, that way anyone trying to exit at the other end without a token, must have come from a platform and therefore must have come off a train. Back to your earlier point though, the sign I noticed was on the platform, near the Pumpkin Cafe Bar. I imagine the Revenue managers will have examined this with a fine toothcombe though, they tend to be very knowledgeable, compared to some other Rev Pro departments.

Interesting, that at Sheffield, they are potentially interfering with 'free passage on the highway' by making someone stop, collect a token, continue, stop to hand in a token, then continue freely on their way. It's a niggly point of detail but could the revenue officers be 'done' for obstructing the highway if they are not simply 'passing and re-passing'? What they do on railway property is up to them and their railway laws. What they do on a public highway is an entirely different matter!

(edit) Then again, was it decided that the Sheffield bridge was NOT a Public Right of Way, merely a route which people had used and its removal (by installing ticket barriers) would cause significant inconvenience whereby the barriers were quietly simply not installed?

 

[MG11]

Interesting, that at Sheffield, they are potentially interfering with 'free passage on the highway' by making someone stop, collect a token, continue, stop to hand in a token, then continue freely on their way. It's a niggly point of detail but could the revenue officers be 'done' for obstructing the highway if they are not simply 'passing and re-passing'? What they do on railway property is up to them and their railway laws. What they do on a public highway is an entirely different matter!

edit Then again, was it decided that the Sheffield bridge was NOT a Public Right of Way, merely a route which people had used and its removal (by installing ticket barriers) would cause significant inconvenience whereby the barriers were quietly simply not installed?

My understanding is that the bridge at Sheffield isn't a public highway as such, it's private land (belonging to the railway and it's appointed operators), with a public right of way forming part of it. I see it a bit like some farmer's having rights of way through their fields. I think that makes it different to obstructing a public highway. Not to mention the fact that there is much legislation and byelaws to protect the railways operating in the way the do.

 

[MG11]

There was a big row over it with residents of East Sheffield protesting and at the time, one of EMT senior management said there was no obligation on persons to accept the token passes if they wanted to walk through, but one member of the public claimed they were threatened with prosecution for tresspass if they didn't accept the pass to walk through..

 

[Baxenden Bank]

My understanding is that the bridge at Sheffield isn't a public highway as such, it's private land (belonging to the railway and it's appointed operators), with a public right of way forming part of it. I see it a bit like some farmer's having rights of way through their fields. I think that makes it different to obstructing a public highway. Not to mention the fact that there is much legislation and byelaws to protect the railways operating in the way the do.

Most Public Rights of Way are on private land. The one at Sheffield will have no 'Right' attached to it, the general public are merely tolerated to use it without payment or threat of prosecution for trespass (Trespassers Will Be Prosecuted = wooden liars). There ought to be one of those signs saying 'this route is not dedicated as a public highway' to prevent 'Rights' being automatically created after the relevant period of unchallenged use, similarly it could be nominally closed for one day per year (generally 1st January) to prevent 'Rights' being created.

 

[A Challenge]

Why not 25th (and 26th?) December as it is closed then anyway?

 

[swt_passenger]

Re. Nottingham, as of Nov 2016, this summary of EMT’s scheme clearly states they had No CTAs:

4 Compulsory ticket areas (CTAs)
4.1 None of the stations listed in 3.1 will designated as compulsory ticket areas at this time.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/379337/response/933111/attach/5/EMT Penalty Fare Scheme Mainline and Robin Hood Line 2016.pdf

Haven’t found anything more up to date.

 

[MG11]

Re. Nottingham, as of Nov 2016, this summary of EMT’s scheme clearly states they had No CTAs:

Haven’t found anything more up to date.

Time for me to tweet East Midlands Trains and see if they can ask their legal eagles about it

 

[CyrusWuff]

I stand for correction, but I believe the bridge with the public right of way at Sheffield is the one at the South end of the platforms - linking Cross Turner Street and the footpath alongside the Supertram tracks - with no access to the station.

 

[sheff1]

Well at another EMT station, Sheffield, when they do stings on the bridge, they issue a pass token to those who want to pass through, that way anyone trying to exit at the other end without a token, must have come from a platform and therefore must have come off a train.

This is not true. The last time I passed through Sheffield when a "sting" was on I was not issued with a "pass token" and when I exited at the other end a statement that I had just come off the tram was accepted without question (if it had been questioned I would merely have shown the tram ticket)

 

[sheff1]

I stand for correction, but I believe the bridge with the public right of way at Sheffield is the one at the South end of the platforms - linking Cross Turner Street and the footpath alongside the Supertram tracks - with no access to the station.

That is my understanding as well. The issue with the station footbridge extension is that it was funded (partially ?) with local authority money, one of the grounds for which was provision of a safe and accessible passageway for residents - the southern bridge is, unsurprisingly, not perceived as safe by many and it certainly isn't accessible.

 

[MG11]

This is not true. The last time I passed through Sheffield when a "sting" was on I was not issued with a "pass token" and when I exited at the other end a statement that I had just come off the tram was accepted without question (if it had been questioned I would merely have shown the tram ticket)

Well you need to tell local news websites that they are too wrong. Tram tickets are not valid on railway property.

 

[221129]

Well you need to tell local news websites that they are too wrong. Tram tickets are not valid on railway property.

No... YOU are wrong.

 

[MG11]

No... YOU are wrong.

Why is that?

 

[AlterEgo]

Well you need to tell local news websites that they are too wrong. Tram tickets are not valid on railway property.

A ticket isn’t valid on a property. It’s valid for a journey.

I’ve never been issued with a bridge pass or anything like that and I’ve been to Sheffield a few times in the last year, using the bridge between tram and the main entrance each time.

 

[MG11]

Despite previous reassurances East Midlands Trains carried out another bridge closure ticket check on Thursday. Below are the letters from Residents Against Station Closure to Mr Mickelthwaite from EMT, which helped prevent the situation becoming worse than it actually was. However the operation did nothing to improve relationships between EMT and the traveling public, be they train passengers or pedestrians simply trying to cross the bridge. Many passengers were delayed having to wait in queues to get to the platform. Pedestrians were asked to take a “Pass” and hand this in, instead of a ticket at the other end of the bridge. Lots of people have commented to me about the chaos at the station and the rudeness of the ticket collectors. When I crossed the bridge I refused to take a pass. I was followed across the bridge and my “guard” then informed the ticket collector at the other end. I was allowed to continue on my way, but was annoyed at this unnecessary operation. I fully support EMT trying to catch ticket dodgers, but the best places for them to do this are on the trains or on the platform. There is no need to close off the whole bridge.

The situation on the station side of the bridge was enough to deter anyone not knowing their rights from crossing the bridge There were no signs informing pedestrians about the bridge access- just tape and no entry signs across two of the arches and queues of passengers at the left hand side trying to access the platforms. At least three police officers were present.

I sincerely hope this will be the last time such a ticket check is carried out. Continued obstruction of the bridge may lead to further protests.

Source: http://manorcastlegreens.sheffieldgreenparty.org.uk