Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

For next week's strike tickets are not being accepted on Metrolink (not even season tickets which have been accepted on past strike days) and Northern only tickets won't be accepted on rail replacement buses operated by Hull Trains between Hull and Doncaster.

 

[FordFocus]

Yes, If the will was there on all sides, I’m sure something fairly close to the Southern deal could solve all the current DOO disputes tomorrow.

Doubt it, the Southern dispute is different as this was imposition of extending DOO. ASLEF and Northern have no DOO agreement.

There are several options that could be put on the table.

1) Keep the current driver/guard method of working on new trains
2) Driver releases the doors and guard closes them. Virgin Trains West Coast, CrossCountry Voyagers
3) Driver controls the doors full time but the guard still has door knowledge during degraded working. Guards are required to be on all trains with full PTS, route knowledge etc.
4) Trains worked as above but train goes without a guard during disruption, the new Southern OBS agreement.
5) As above but guards have minimal knowledge on PTS, GSM-R, evacuations. No doors or route knowledge. Similar to the Scotrail Ticket Examiners
6) Trains have no rostered second member of staff and the only occasional RPI. Bog standard working in the DOO areas of South Eastern, c2c, Chiltern, GWR LTV, GA, Southern Metro, Thameslink et al.

Obviously the RMT wanted option 1. Northern were around option 4/5 originally. RMT then went to option 2 according to their press releases and membership circulars but was rejected.. So now IMHO it's a stalemate at the minute. The huge stumbling point is again, Northern need to approach ASLEF for an agreement of some description. Then ASLEF have to ballot members to accept the change in drivers Terms and Conditions.

Ultimately I can see eventually a deal around option 3 been done. No one really wins but there's no real losers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can understand XC not agreeing it due to their own severe overcrowding problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For next week's strike tickets are not being accepted on Metrolink (not even season tickets which have been accepted on past strike days)

Of course if Manchester actually had an integrated fares system like a proper European system this would not be an issue.

 

[FordFocus]

Severe overcrowding and lack of station staff for dispatching trains at Congleton.

 

[northwichcat]

I can understand XC not agreeing it due to their own severe overcrowding problem.

But then like I said in a post a while back they are required to stop one morning peak train to Manchester and one evening peak train from Manchester. Would it be better for 200 passengers trying to get a single XC service to Manchester or 80 passengers on each of three different XC services?

 

[northwichcat]

Of course if Manchester actually had an integrated fares system like a proper European system this would not be an issue.

Having a Greater Manchester system alone wouldn't solve the problem. For example, if you live in Northwich or Knutsford you're outside the GM boundary but in the absence of trains between Altrincham and Manchester on strike days, changing to the tram at Altrincham is the easiest way to get to Manchester, then if there isn't a train from Northwich/Knutsford to Altrincham at the time you need to travel and you need to catch the (non-Arriva) bus, again you can't use your rail ticket.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

But then like I said in a post a while back they are required to stop one morning peak train to Manchester and one evening peak train from Manchester. Would it be better for 200 passengers trying to get a single XC service to Manchester or 80 passengers on each of three different XC services?

Little ambitious but swap some pendos to call at CNG instead of MAC (as MAC has a Northern Service as well as the usual XC) - ATW don't serve Sandbach so why not.

 

[LowLevel]

Severe overcrowding and lack of station staff for dispatching trains at Congleton.

Dispatch staff shouldn't be an issue. They already have booked calls at Congleton and self dispatch anyway.

Little ambitious but swap some pendos to call at CNG instead of MAC (as MAC has a Northern Service as well as the usual XC) - ATW don't serve Sandbach so why not.

A 390 won't fit and the selective door opening so fitted wouldn't, I think, be suited to allowing them to call?

 

[CN75]

Doubt it, the Southern dispute is different as this was imposition of extending DOO. ASLEF and Northern have no DOO agreement.

There are several options that could be put on the table.

1) Keep the current driver/guard method of working on new trains
2) Driver releases the doors and guard closes them. Virgin Trains West Coast, CrossCountry Voyagers
3) Driver controls the doors full time but the guard still has door knowledge during degraded working. Guards are required to be on all trains with full PTS, route knowledge etc.
4) Trains worked as above but train goes without a guard during disruption, the new Southern OBS agreement.
5) As above but guards have minimal knowledge on PTS, GSM-R, evacuations. No doors or route knowledge. Similar to the Scotrail Ticket Examiners
6) Trains have no rostered second member of staff and the only occasional RPI. Bog standard working in the DOO areas of South Eastern, c2c, Chiltern, GWR LTV, GA, Southern Metro, Thameslink et al.

Obviously the RMT wanted option 1. Northern were around option 4/5 originally. RMT then went to option 2 according to their press releases and membership circulars but was rejected.. So now IMHO it's a stalemate at the minute. The huge stumbling point is again, Northern need to approach ASLEF for an agreement of some description. Then ASLEF have to ballot members to accept the change in drivers Terms and Conditions.

Ultimately I can see eventually a deal around option 3 been done. No one really wins but there's no real losers.

Northern’s current plans are to run some trains with guards and run others on lines where the stations are staffed instead, by the ex-conductors. The obvious choices would be inner city routes with maximum numbers of people passing through gates or manual checks. These plans are also what they will have agreed with the DfT to implement by 2020, so any variation which came close to putting a second person rostered on every train would need them to go back to the DfT, who could well decline.

From a logistic point of view, this system does make sense if you consider the new trains will have the latest automatic information systems, wi-fi and overall a big upgrade in the information the passengers will get over the status quo. Ticket checks on trains are inefficient on busy routes with lots of people so doing what metro systems do and checking at stations is probably another benefit of the DOO scheme.

ASLEF will be the key. The usual factors will be involved such as money to get the deal in. However, as GTR showed when there was an ASLEF strike, the new arrangements for compensating the TOCs for all industrial action (including a complete shutdown) mean it isn’t as unthinkable as it once was. GTR made it clear it would tolerate more strikes before ASLEF called them off and begun months of negotiations.

ASLEF therefore might think carefully about how strong their position actually is. Striking runs the risk of splitting the drivers into two the longer it goes on, potentially getting legislation banning train driver strikes passed, and costing millions if a court challenge succeeded against any aspect of the action. Some drivers obviously believe DOO or Union solidarity is their burning issue, but it is lazy to assume that all do, particularly when faced with losing thousands striking.

Altogether Northern is set for a very unpredictable outcome - but with a very uneven playing field because of the way the franchises are now being put out by the DfT, the two unions have lost a lot of their aces.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Dispatch staff shouldn't be an issue. They already have booked calls at Congleton and self dispatch anyway.



A 390 won't fit and the selective door opening so fitted wouldn't, I think, be suited to allowing them to call?

I am aware that it wouldn't fit - I alighted a pendolino once at Wilmslow (P4 maybe?) on the styal lines and there was an announcement notifying passengers which doors wouldn't open

Also CrossCountry managed 8 coaches on 09/12/18 (2x4 coach voyager) (0557 BHM-MAN)
Then there's the argument of the likes of GWR and GTR/SWR not caring about what does or doesn't fit (HST on Worcester to Oxford only 2 of 8 were unlocked at a few stations)

 

[Carlisle]

I am aware that it wouldn't fit - I alighted a pendolino once at Wilmslow (P4 maybe?) on the styal lines and there was an announcement notifying passengers which doors wouldn't open

Also CrossCountry managed 8 coaches on 09/12/18 (2x4 coach voyager) (0557 BHM-MAN)
Then there's the argument of the likes of GWR and GTR/SWR not caring about what does or doesn't fit (HST on Worcester to Oxford only 2 of 8 were unlocked at a few stations)

I agree its perfectly possible if the will was there, even if they had to go as far as deploying additional staff to manually lock/unlock certain doors, but I guess the possibility of delays and general inconvenience to the operator/NR of organising it all at short notice make it extremely unlikely .

 

[northwichcat]

I know this is an old post but I've had some 'interesting' conversations with northern via Twitter DMs regarding extra XC stops at Congleton on strike days.

There's the same process every time;
1. Not our problem, ask CrossCountry (In a polite and understanding way to be fair)
*Upon asking XC they say; 'Not our problem, northern need to ask us.' (Which I believe is correct)
2. We'll pass this to our train planning team. (I thank them and wait)
3. After no response from them I chase it up and get; 'This has not been possible'
when i ask why I get 'Requests for extra calls have been rejected by the planning team.'

Then the strike day comes around and I see many ATW and EM making additional calls.
Most frustrating is ATW making additional calls at Sandbach - Which isn't served by ATW at all...

This happens every time - I was at Congleton station for 10 minutes to pick up some tickets last strike day and I had to turn away 4 groups of people because they had no idea (no info - no staff) - Ridiculous!

I've noticed on the Northern website they currently suggest the 99 bus to Macclesfield is an alternative, despite the fact the 99 is operated by D&G when there's an alternative Arriva service and Arriva buses are supposed to be accepting rail tickets.

 

[palmersears]

Does the silence in this thread regarding the actual strike day itself suggest people have adjusted to these strike days now? Anecdotally it seems the 'normals' on my commute are now adept at ensuring they get to and from work on a strike day, and the inconvenience the strikes are causing seems to be lessening with each occurrence.

 

[woodmally]

Does the silence in this thread regarding the actual strike day itself suggest people have adjusted to these strike days now? Anecdotally it seems the 'normals' on my commute are now adept at ensuring they get to and from work on a strike day, and the inconvenience the strikes are causing seems to be lessening with each occurrence.

In short you have proved my point. RMT cannot win this as all they can afford to do to avoid hardship for members is take one or two days off a month. Northern can build this into their business model along with using scab workers and the passengers will adapt. So this will now continue till DOO is implemented. So nothing is gained by this action.

 

[Smidster]

Does the silence in this thread regarding the actual strike day itself suggest people have adjusted to these strike days now? Anecdotally it seems the 'normals' on my commute are now adept at ensuring they get to and from work on a strike day, and the inconvenience the strikes are causing seems to be lessening with each occurrence.

Pretty much - I tend to work remotely on strike days and in fact find it works better anyway so will be doing it more often so to that extent RMT have succeeded in putting me off travelling.

The service they do provide is sufficient for most people and as you say the rest have adapted to the situation as it is now a regular occurrence.

The timing of this one qaw also odd. Thursday I get as you want to mess up Easter for people but a Monday in the school holidays?

The quicker we get on with DOO the better

 

[northwichcat]

Does the silence in this thread regarding the actual strike day itself suggest people have adjusted to these strike days now? Anecdotally it seems the 'normals' on my commute are now adept at ensuring they get to and from work on a strike day, and the inconvenience the strikes are causing seems to be lessening with each occurrence.

Of course the majority of Northern passengers don't post on this forum and those who do don't all want to keep repeating themselves.

 

[Dentonian]

Pretty much - I tend to work remotely on strike days and in fact find it works better anyway so will be doing it more often so to that extent RMT have succeeded in putting me off travelling.

The service they do provide is sufficient for most people and as you say the rest have adapted to the situation as it is now a regular occurrence.

The timing of this one qaw also odd. Thursday I get as you want to mess up Easter for people but a Monday in the school holidays?

The quicker we get on with DOO the better

Its not school holidays in Gtr. Manchester until next week. As regards people adapting, I suppose it depends on which lines and adopting a range of alternatives. On the HVL line about half of off-peak and a third of peak journeys running, but at least we don't seem to have "short forming" on Strike Days, even though this is becoming worse and worse on normal days (like tonight). Consequently, peak trains are rammed, but my morning off-peak (as in after 0930 arrival) seems about normal. Nothing seems to have changed much since the Strikes started. Surprisingly, (road) traffic doesn't appear to be any worse, but with so many other things affecting that, it would be difficult to gauge.

 

[northwichcat]

Its not school holidays in Gtr. Manchester until next week.

I thought they started tomorrow meaning Thursdays strike will be during school holidays even if Monday's strike was in school term time. Also worth noting a number of school kids living in Greater Manchester attend schools outside GM and a number of those living outside GM attend GM schools.

 

[Dentonian]

I thought they started tomorrow meaning Thursdays strike will be during school holidays even if Monday's strike was in school term time. Also worth noting a number of school kids living in Greater Manchester attend schools outside GM and a number of those living outside GM attend GM schools.

Officially (at least), Manchester, Stockport and Tameside schools don't break up until Thursday. I can't speak for he other 7 authorities, but historically its usually only Wigan that differ from the other 9. I must admit, I wasn't thinking of schoolchildren themselves travelling - something I only associate with Private Schools where students travel longer distances, and are more likely to live in areas with a rail service - rather their parents taking time off work to coincide with the holidays, thus reducing demand.

 

[northwichcat]

I must admit, I wasn't thinking of schoolchildren themselves travelling - something I only associate with Private Schools where students travel longer distances, and are more likely to live in areas with a rail service - rather their parents taking time off work to coincide with the holidays, thus reducing demand.

It's very common between Trafford and Cheshire East with Trafford still having the grammar school system and many children not getting good enough grades on 11+ tests to get in to local schools in Trafford, some who attend Knutsford Academy live as far away as Urmston! Then you get schoolkids from Cheshire attending Trafford schools like St Ambrose and Loreto.

 

[johntea]

A lot of impact is taken away, at least in Yorkshire, by the fact you can just catch the bus during strike days with your rail ticket. I did notice quite an increase in staff being able to carry out ticket checks / sales during the strike on Monday compared to previous strikes!

 

[footprints]

I see the RMT have now written to the German Transport Minister seeking his intervention in the dispute. Talk about clutching at straws!

 

[Smidster]

I see the RMT have now written to the German chancellor seeking his intervention in the dispute. Talk about clutching at straws!

Somebody give me some of what they are on - I could do with some time in their delusional world

 

[Robertj21a]

I see the RMT have now written to the German Transport Minister seeking his intervention in the dispute. Talk about clutching at straws!

Seriously ? - it's not Sunday yet (do they even do April Fools Day in Germany ?)

 

[footprints]

Here's the latest diatribe in all its glory, essentially telling the German government the British public will all blame them if this dispute isn't resolved! You couldn't make it up.

On the eve of the next 24 hour phase of strike action on Northern Rail in the dispute over guards and rail safety, RMT has confirmed that it has written to the German transport minister seeking an urgent meeting aimed at breaking the current deadlock.

In the letter to Alexander Dobrindt, the German Federal Transport Minister, RMT General Secretary Mick Cash says:

“My members are worried that the actions in the UK by German state owned rail operator (Arriva Rail North) will continue with the removal of Guards from trains and exacerbate the ongoing industrial action currently taking place and it is therefore only you who could use your position to seek a solution.

Your help in this matter is vital to avoid the German government being seen as the one prolonging this dispute and jeopardising safety, security and accessibility on UK rail services.

UK passengers will become unhappy that their counterparts in Germany are benefitting directly from German state rail profiteering on Northern by removing safety critical staff and at the same time as UK fares are going through the roof."

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said;

“The dispute over guards and public safety on Northern Rail has now been going on for over a year and it is frankly ludicrous that we have been unable to make any progress in talks with the German state-owned operator Arriva while we have been signing off agreements in Scotland and Wales that underpin the guard guarantee.

“With the next phase of strike action taking place tomorrow. Thursday 29th March, I have written to the German Transport Minister seeking an urgent meeting and calling for their assistance in brokering a solution that protects rail safety in northern Britain. I have met with the British Transport Secretary who has refused to assist us in reaching a resolution and I just hope his German counterpart proves to be more responsive.

“RMT has made it clear that we will leave no stone unturned in achieving a safe and viable solution to the Northern Rail dispute and as our members prepare to take action again tomorrow the union continues to press for the top-level talks required to reach a conclusion that puts public safety before private profit.”

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/call-for-meet-with-german28318/

 

[Bletchleyite]

This really has now entered silly season. What does he think the German Government are going to do about it?

 

[Robertj21a]

Here's the latest diatribe in all its glory, essentially telling the German government the British public will all blame them if this dispute isn't resolved! You couldn't make it up.



https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/call-for-meet-with-german28318/

Wow ! - and double Wow !

I really can't believe the RMT has done that. Quite incredible.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

RMT are a touch embarrassing. That said, I feel I am at war not only with 'failing Grayling' and his political tribe, but 'Arriva' as well. I never felt at war with 'Arriva' when this kicked off, but some recent events have changed my ideas.

Strike tomorrow. I can afford it. Taking the kids to 'Alpamare' Scarborough. Should be less busy than it will be over the weekend.

Have a good Easter folks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am no great fan of Arriva, but the DOO situation has been forced by DfT in each of the recent cases so it is hard to actually blame the TOCs for it other than with the somewhat tenuous "if you don't like it don't bid", which would just have resulted in a DOR-a-like implementing DOO instead.