Delay repay declined

[commuter1982]

Hi there. I have received an email from Southern rail saying that I have basically made too many delay repay claims and they can no longer process any more. My work requires me to travel frequently through the day between the start and end points of my season tickets at all different times and I am pretty unlucky with delays and cancellations which are pretty daily on my route. I'm now concerned to even talk to them about this and explain this as I worry they will take it further. Do I stop making claims alltogether or is there a time frame for when they will allow me to make claims again.

 

[yorkie]

Providing they are legitimate claims, there should be no limit really.

GTR do look at CCTV in cases where commuters constantly claim to change their travel habits which happen to coincide with delays occurring and they have successfully prosecuted some commuters for fraudulent claims.

However without knowing the detail it is impossible to give advise really but if you are 100% certain your claims are legit, I'd escalate it within GTR first, and then refer it to Transport Focus.

 

[bb21]

If you make claims for journeys at different times all over the day and always just happen to be on a delayed service then it will indeed cause suspicion.

I am not sure whether your total claim value can be limited on a season ticket but don't think there is anything explicit barring any claim over the value of your season ticket.

At the end of the day, if your claims were all genuine then there is nothing to worry about. If the claims were based on information taken from open data websites rather than genuine delays then it is sometimes not too difficult to catch fraudulent claims out with a little digging, as I have done so several times in my job, in which case prosecution for fraud can follow and do succeed.

 

[commuter1982]

If you make claims for journeys at different times all over the day and always just happen to be on a delayed service then it will indeed cause suspicion.

I am not sure whether your total claim value can be limited on a season ticket but don't think there is anything explicit barring any claim over the value of your season ticket.

At the end of the day, if your claims were all genuine then there is nothing to worry about. If the claims were based on information taken from open data websites rather than genuine delays then it is sometimes not too difficult to catch fraudulent claims out with a little digging, as I have done so several times in my job, in which case prosecution for fraud can follow and do succeed.

What is an open data website. Other than being at the station I usually check the national rail enquiries app before I head to the station to check if my trains are delayed.

 

[yorkie]

What is an open data website.

Sites like Raidar, OpenTrainTimes etc use the open train times data.

Other than being at the station I usually check the national rail enquiries app before I head to the station to check if my trains are delayed.

Can you give any examples of journeys you made for which your Delay Repay claims have been refused?

 

[commuter1982]

Sites like Raidar, OpenTrainTimes etc use the open train times data.

Can you give any examples of journeys that have been refused?

Not really. They have just come back saying there are a large number of claims I have made and they can no longer process that particular claim (they sent me 3 separate emails for 3 separate claims I made over the last two weeks). The email is mildly accusatory and whilst I appreciate that as my claims are genuine it still makes me feel like a criminal

 

[matt_world2004]

Start gathering evidence of why your journey pattern varies such as location rosters/work orders etc etc. Send them an email saying that if they do not process the delay repay claims you will be forced to take it further.

 

[farleigh]

This is terrible behaviour by Southern. Is the onus on commuter1982 to prove that he is not committing fraud?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are routes where at times a claim would be almost daily. Think the WLL...

 

[matt_world2004]

There are routes where at times a claim would be almost daily. Think the WLL...

It sounds like the OP works in various locations at various times so it may be that his ticket is something akin to a travelcard and they have been disrupted on multiple different routes

 

[commuter1982]

This is terrible behaviour by Southern. Is the onus on commuter1982 to prove that he is not committing fraud?

I'm not sure how I do prove it other than my word. As I've said I will often check the national rail app to see if the train I intend to take is cancelled or delayed. If it's cancelled then naturally I'm not going to go to the station so they won't find me on CCTV. And in some cases I won't get the next train as the idea of delay repay is that if the train you intend to take is cancelled then you can claim. They can't exactly force you to take the next one.

 

[commuter1982]

There are routes where at times a claim would be almost daily. Think the WLL...

We all know that southern reliability is not great so yes sometimes there are claims every day which is surely their fault for not running a full service not mine.

 

[commuter1982]

Start gathering evidence of why your journey pattern varies such as location rosters/work orders etc etc. Send them an email saying that if they do not process the delay repay claims you will be forced to take it further.

Unfortunately the nature of my work doesn't use rosters or work orders. Most of the time I'm running to and fro last minute just to drop off documents etc. I'm a bit of a dogsbody and use the trains as I don't drive. I'm just panicking now as the email didn't say if they were investigating or just declining my claim on this occasion.

 

[AlterEgo]

OP - how many claims have you made? And in what sort of time period?

 

[matt_world2004]

Unfortunately the nature of my work doesn't use rosters or work orders. Most of the time I'm running to and fro last minute just to drop off documents etc. I'm a bit of a dogsbody and use the trains as I don't drive. I'm just panicking now as the email didn't say if they were investigating or just declining my claim on this occasion.

Does the organisation you work for have multiple business premises that the documents get dropped off at or would your line manager be able to state tthe nature of your work?

I don't think you would need to prove that you had to be in a specific location at a specific time , just that your work would require you to be in multiple locations and what locations they were,

 

[AlterEgo]

This is terrible behaviour by Southern. Is the onus on commuter1982 to prove that he is not committing fraud?

It isn't necessarily terrible behaviour.

Suspicious claims are very easy to spot. The first step is to send a letter which does not accuse the claimant but rather lets them know their high claim rate has been noticed. This generally stops 90% of fraudsters - the claims cease, and no further action needs to be taken.

A claimant who has a season ticket between A and B and just so happens to take journeys across the validity of their season ticket, between C and D and various places in between, at varying times of the day which do not fit with a commuting pattern, and who happens to be delayed very often, would arouse initial suspicion.

It is very easy to build up a picture with a small amount of effort. If, for example, I knew the OP's real name, I could find out, easily and perfectly legitimately, where they worked, and what job they have. If they're a desk worker with a fixed office, this would raise suspicion further and I would have passed the case onto Revenue Protection or the Prosecutions team.

 

[Starmill]

They can't exactly force you to take the next one.

If you don't travel then it's unclear what the procedure is.

If I had a season, and I wanted to make a journey but I noticed before arriving at the station that my intended service was cancelled, and that meant that I didn't want to make the journey any more, I would write in a complaint rather than completing the delay repay form. I might leave it open ended, rather than demanding the compensation, to simply say this is what happened, the next available service was not for 30 minutes and I chose rather than to wait around for that long to make my own arrangements. This has always resulted in success. Either the company has responded with the Delay Repay, or they have sent a token amount as a 'gesture of goodwill'. Sometimes this token amount is actually more than I would have been entitled to, had I made the journey and arrived 30 minutes late. The ball, in this way, is in their court. I will probably still get what I want (a little bit of money back), but if it was an edge case, their customer relations can choose to pay it or not - and they certainly cannot accuse me of fraud.

 

[island]

Essentially it appears they suspect you of using a website to find delayed trains covered by your season ticket and claiming for these delays without being on the trains.

Can you obtain a letter from work explaining that you have a business need to travel these routes at odd times?

 

[Hadders]

One thing you could do is take a photo of the platform departure board upon arrival which would show the delay. Clearly there is no requirement to do this but it did assist me in getting a disputed claim paid.

 

[commuter1982]

It isn't necessarily terrible behaviour.

Suspicious claims are very easy to spot. The first step is to send a letter which does not accuse the claimant but rather lets them know their high claim rate has been noticed. This generally stops 90% of fraudsters - the claims cease, and no further action needs to be taken.

A claimant who has a season ticket between A and B and just so happens to take journeys across the validity of their season ticket, between C and D and various places in between, at varying times of the day which do not fit with a commuting pattern, and who happens to be delayed very often, would arouse initial suspicion.

It is very easy to build up a picture with a small amount of effort. If, for example, I knew the OP's real name, I could find out, easily and perfectly legitimately, where they worked, and what job they have. If they're a desk worker with a fixed office, this would raise suspicion further and I would have passed the case onto Revenue Protection or the Prosecutions team.

I just feel now that I cant ever make another claim. Is there a period these train companies wait until a customer is allowed to claim again?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I just feel now that I cant ever make another claim. Is there a period these train companies wait until a customer is allowed to claim again?

Claim away. If you are within the rules, they have no right to refuse the claim.

 

[Hadders]

I just feel now that I cant ever make another claim. Is there a period these train companies wait until a customer is allowed to claim again?

Of course you can claim.

 

[AlterEgo]

I just feel now that I cant ever make another claim. Is there a period these train companies wait until a customer is allowed to claim again?

Could you let answer some of the questions in the thread first?

Like, what sort of journeys you’ve been claiming for, how often, how many stations are involved and so on. I can then tell you if I think their suspicions are reasonable or not.

So far, everything you’ve written in this thread only increases my spidey senses that you’ve been putting in claims for trains you’ve not travelled on. When you have worked processing Delay Repay, the fraudsters stand out.

That’s not me calling you out, I’m just trying to let you know that even if you are genuine then the way you come across is exactly the same as a number of fraudsters I’ve personally caught out before.

People who put in fraudulent claims are generally dissuaded from doing so again by receiving the sort of letter you got.

 

[AlterEgo]

Claim away. If you are within the rules, they have no right to refuse the claim.

Both Transport Focus and ATOC (now RDG) have backed up TOCs which refused to handle further claims in the past.

I don’t want to give away all the TOC secrets on this, but there will be a good reason the OP received that letter and it will not have been done lightly.

 

[commuter1982]

It isn't necessarily terrible behaviour.

Suspicious claims are very easy to spot. The first step is to send a letter which does not accuse the claimant but rather lets them know their high claim rate has been noticed. This generally stops 90% of fraudsters - the claims cease, and no further action needs to be taken.

A claimant who has a season ticket between A and B and just so happens to take journeys across the validity of their season ticket, between C and D and various places in between, at varying times of the day which do not fit with a commuting pattern, and who happens to be delayed very often, would arouse initial suspicion.

It is very easy to build up a picture with a small amount of effort. If, for example, I knew the OP's real name, I could find out, easily and perfectly legitimately, where they worked, and what job they have. If they're a desk worker with a fixed office, this would raise suspicion further and I would have passed the case onto Revenue Protection or the Prosecutions team.

I can appreciate how some claims seem suspicious but it seems I'm just unlucky especially with the recent weather and southern rails issues with staff in general!

 

[AlterEgo]

I can appreciate how some claims seem suspicious but it seems I'm just unlucky especially with the recent weather and southern rails issues with staff in general!

Could you let us know, again, how many journeys you’ve claimed for, roughly over what period of time, and how many stations are involved?

 

[commuter1982]

Could you let answer some of the questions in the thread first?

Like, what sort of journeys you’ve been claiming for, how often, how many stations are involved and so on. I can then tell you if I think their suspicions are reasonable or not.

So far, everything you’ve written in this thread only increases my spidey senses that you’ve been putting in claims for trains you’ve not travelled on. When you have worked processing Delay Repay, the fraudsters stand out.

That’s not me calling you out, I’m just trying to let you know that even if you are genuine then the way you come across is exactly the same as a number of fraudsters I’ve personally caught out before.

People who put in fraudulent claims are generally dissuaded from doing so again by receiving the sort of letter you got.

Majority of my journeys are between A and B, back and forth sometimes up to 3/4 times a day. As I'm sure most people can appreciate there are delays nearly every day. On some occasions I merely need to get a train from A to B and straight back again. The route I take is not a very popular route with most trains during the day being one an hour therefore most of my claims are for 60 mins. If I make a claim most days surely that's my right under the delay repay scheme?

Both Transport Focus and ATOC (now RDG) have backed up TOCs which refused to handle further claims in the past.

I don’t want to give away all the TOC secrets on this, but there will be a good reason the OP received that letter and it will not have been done lightly.

I haven't received a letter, merely a decline on each of my claims from the the last week but the email says due to an 'unusually large number of claims on your account'.

 

[AlterEgo]

Majority of my journeys are between A and B, back and forth sometimes up to 3/4 times a day. As I'm sure most people can appreciate there are delays nearly every day. On some occasions I merely need to get a train from A to B and straight back again. The route I take is not a very popular route with most trains during the day being one an hour therefore most of my claims are for 60 mins. If I make a claim most days surely that's my right under the delay repay scheme?

But you don’t always travel when you see a delay?

Are you able to evidence your reason for such irregular travel patterns to the TOC?

I have to say, in several years of processing Delay Repay (thankfully in the past now!) I literally never came across a case where someone was legitimately delayed “most days”. Not saying it’s impossible, but it would raise suspicions.

Which stations are A and B? And do you do journeys elsewhere on the Permitted route of your season ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have to say, in several years of processing Delay Repay (thankfully in the past now!) I literally never came across a case where someone was legitimately delayed “most days”. Not saying it’s impossible, but it would raise suspicions.

And I suspect the TOC would know about it if it was. The WLL being the obvious one.

I was for a while using the 1710 or 1811 East Croydon to MKC twice a week, I believe I managed a success rate of under 50% of them running, and travel via London (to Bletchley) tended to take over 15 minutes longer each time.

 

[commuter1982]

But you don’t always travel when you see a delay?

Are you able to evidence your reason for such irregular travel patterns to the TOC?

I have to say, in several years of processing Delay Repay (thankfully in the past now!) I literally never came across a case where someone was legitimately delayed “most days”. Not saying it’s impossible, but it would raise suspicions.

Which stations are A and B? And do you do journeys elsewhere on the Permitted route of your season ticket?

On some occasions no I haven't travelled if a train I intended to get was cancelled. Delay Repay states that you can claim as long as you INTENDED to make the journey - their words not mine!

The only journey I make on my ticket is from my home station to my main work station. If I'm required to go to another destination (often on a different route) I have to purchase a second ticket.