Waterloo and City line stock

[IanXC]

I wonder if anyone can confirm how 'semi permanently coupled' the stock on the Waterloo and City line is? Is there space within the depot to even remarshal then?

Does anyone know which pairs are currently coupled?

 

[theblackwatch]

They always seem to be in consecutive pairs - ie 482501+502, 503+504, 505+506, 507+508 and 509+510. I did once have 504+507 together, but that was back in the 1990s or early 2000s - so clearly it is (or was!) possible to re-marshall them.

 

[Capybara]

They always seem to be in consecutive pairs - ie 482501+502, 503+504, 505+506, 507+508 and 509+510. I did once have 504+507 together, but that was back in the 1990s or early 2000s - so clearly it is (or was!) possible to re-marshall them.

Or they could have been put back in a different order when they had them out for refurbishment a few years ago.

 

[notverydeep]

Or they could have been put back in a different order when they had them out for refurbishment a few years ago.

They were all together this morning at about 0700, 65505/06 were train 201 65509/10 were train 202, 65503/04 train 203 and 65507/08 train 204 leaving 65501/02 in the depot. Waterloo depot has one or more roads too short to accommodate more than a single 2 car unit, so they do get split on occasion, but always seem to get reunited with their partner...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have occasionally had mixed pairs. Not often, but often enough that I'll always check both units for my haulage notes - I suspect it happens mostly due to maintenance requirements. They certainly do seem to get re-formed back very quickly on those occasions when it does happen.

 

[ainsworth74]

Which leads me to the question of why they didn't just build them as four car sets?

 

[hexagon789]

Which leads me to the question of why they didn't just build them as four car sets?

Was it not for some arbitrary maintenance reason? Can't think exactly what.

 

[Domh245]

The 92TS that they followed on from are formed from 2-car units, A-B types having a cab and an intermediate car, B-C types having 2 intermediate cars, and B-D types being B-Cs with deicing equipment. The W&C order was for 10 A-B units forming 5x 4 car trains. Ordering them as a permanent 4 car train would have made them more expensive as they wouldn't be a follow on order any more

 

[ainsworth74]

Huh interesting. What a bizarre way of structuring a train which will always be running around 8-car formations!

 

[hexagon789]

The 92TS that they followed on from are formed from 2-car units, A-B types having a cab and an intermediate car, B-C types having 2 intermediate cars, and B-D types being B-Cs with deicing equipment. The W&C order was for 10 A-B units forming 5x 4 car trains. Ordering them as a permanent 4 car train would have made them more expensive as they wouldn't be a follow on order any more

What a complicated way to save money!

 

[philthetube]

There are advantages to having them as 2x2, if two units are defective then you only lose one train, important on the W&C line.

 

[hexagon789]

There are advantages to having them as 2x2, if two units are defective then you only lose one train, important on the W&C line.

How many do they need in service then?

 

[rebmcr]

Huh interesting. What a bizarre way of structuring a train which will always be running around 8-car formations!

The Epping-Ongar part of the Central line operated 4-car when the '92TS was built.

 

[Domh245]

I fail to see how it is a "complicated way to save money". LU had gone through the expense of developing them and had settled on their 2-car base setup, so anything other than just ordering some of the end vehicles would have been the complicated solution.

As for why LU went for the 2 car setup, it's probably documented somewhere, but it'll have been done for flexibility's sake, I think it had been intended for them to operate as 4 car minimum anyway for the likes of the Hainault shuttle which is why I think they settled for the 2 car unit setup, it gives them plenty of variations and so on

 

[hexagon789]

I fail to see how it is a "complicated way to save money". LU had gone through the expense of developing them and had settled on their 2-car base setup, so anything other than just ordering some of the end vehicles would have been the complicated solution.

As for why LU went for the 2 car setup, it's probably documented somewhere, but it'll have been done for flexibility's sake, I think it had been intended for them to operate as 4 car minimum anyway for the likes of the Hainault shuttle which is why I think they settled for the 2 car unit setup, it gives them plenty of variations and so on

Complicated because why wouldn't you have four car sets of your were always going to run them as such?

 

[Domh245]

Complicated because why wouldn't you have four car sets of your were always going to run them as such?

You just run them as 2 semi permanently coupled sets and you've got your 4 car train. I fail to see how that is more difficult than ordering something that'd have to be a new design (or heavily modified) to get the single 4 car unit.

It's really not all that different from the 700s which are 2 permanently coupled 4 car units, each of which is entirely seperate from the other in terms of electrical subsystems and so on

 

[hexagon789]

I fail to see how that is more difficult than ordering something that'd have to be a new design (or heavily modified) to get the single 4 car unit.

I was under the impression that the other 1992 stock was four-car units, but I see that's not the case.

 

[Mojo]

How many do they need in service then?

All five trains (ie. all ten units) are required to be in service for the peak hour service on weekday am and pm.

 

[class387]

The Epping-Ongar part of the Central line operated 4-car when the '92TS was built.

Did the 1992 Stock ever operate to Ongar in service?

 

[Mojo]

Did the 1992 Stock ever operate to Ongar in service?

We had a discussion on this topic the other year; see below for more details: -

No 1992 Stock worked to Ongar in passenger service, although a test trip or two did operate.

 

[hexagon789]

All five trains (ie. all ten units) are required to be in service for the peak hour service on weekday am and pm.

Not good too good if a unit fails then. So it's about a 5 min frequency at peak?

 

[Mojo]

Not good too good if a unit fails then. So it's about a 5 min frequency at peak?

The peak hour service is a train every 2¾ Min.

 

[hexagon789]

The peak hour service is a train every 2¾ Min.

That's a weird frequency; basically Waterloo-Bank then vice-versa as quick as possible in rotation?

 

[notverydeep]

Not good too good if a unit fails then.

It is though better to have a 5 train service with 2 3/4 minute headways for 90% of peaks and 3 1/2 minute headways on the 10% of occasions when a unit is stopped, than having to have a 3 1/2 minute headway service for 100% of peaks...

 

[hexagon789]

It is though better to have a 5 train service with 2 3/4 minute headways for 90% of peaks and 3 1/2 minute headways on the 10% of occasions when a unit is stopped, than having to have a 3 1/2 minute headway service for 100% of peaks...

I suppose, I just thought they would have at least a two-car unit spare for such occasions.

 

[Mojo]

I suppose, I just thought they would have at least a two-car unit spare for such occasions.

As designed only four trains were only ever in service, so there was always one train (ie. 2 x 2 car units) not in service as that was the maximum capacity at the time of the stock being ordered. Metronet upgraded the line in summer 2006 and changed the signalling system resulting in extra capacity.

 

[hexagon789]

As designed only four trains were only ever in service, so there was always one train (ie. 2 x 2 car units) not in service as that was the maximum capacity at the time of the stock being ordered. Metronet upgraded the line in summer 2006 and changed the signalling system resulting in extra capacity.

Oh right I see, thanks for the explanation

 

[LU_timetabler]

There is always the option for the '92 stock at some point to run in 4-car formation on the Central again if the Woodford - Hainault section becomes a shuttle.

 

[jopsuk]

The number of trains they have on the line is limited by the depot space!

 

[Mojo]

The number of trains they have on the line is limited by the depot space!

Well yes, although trains are also stabled in one of the platforms at Bank overnight and occasionally at Waterloo too. But that isn’t the reason the number of trains are limited; they are limited because only five of them exist, and with the present financial situation I cannot imagine how an extra train could be ordered as the line’s capacity is only 5 trains at one time due to signalling, notwithstanding the financial cost of procuring an extra train (for what?)