Glitch with restriction code 5K on Oxford-Twickenham

[IrishDave]

A friend of mine plans to travel from Oxford to Twickenham on Thursday (today), catching the 18:31 to Reading, and thence the 19:12 to Twickenham, arriving 20:10, and then returning on Saturday. With a Network Railcard, the obvious fare is the £23.05 Off-Peak Return route Reading not London.

For reference, this is the ticket:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=OXF&dest=TWI&rlc=NEW&rte=830&tkt=SVR

The human-readable text of restriction code 5K only lists evening peak restrictions on trains leaving Paddington and Reading towards the west; for example, the 18:45 from Paddington (19:11 from Reading) to Swansea. However, the way this is implemented in journey planners is not by a bar on specific trains, but rather statements such as
"Not valid to depart READING 1911–1912 on any TOC"
as seen in the unpublished restrictions further down the page.

Since the 19:12 to Twickenham falls foul of this restriction, journey planners will not offer the ticket for the journey above, even though the text of the restriction means the ticket is clearly valid. See, for example, the attached screenshot of GWR's own booking engine.

So, three questions:

1. Theoretically, is the ticket valid on those trains, or can the unpublished restrictions trump the actual text of the restriction code?
2. Practically, will my friend actually get hassled from guards or gateline staff for using that ticket on those trains?
3. Can this problem be fixed easily? Who should I contact to do so?

Thanks in advance for any and all assistance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

WMT (ex-LM) have a number of restrictions which can't be implemented properly in the machine-readable manner (not just haven't been, but can't be), so the machine-readable implementation is stricter than the text. Traincrew in this case use the text and I have never been challenged for this.

 

[IrishDave]

WMT (ex-LM) have a number of restrictions which can't be implemented properly in the machine-readable manner (not just haven't been, but can't be), so the machine-readable implementation is stricter than the text. Traincrew in this case use the text and I have never been challenged for this.

Thanks, that's good to know. Are these the ones that say "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time"? I can imagine that being difficult to implement, at least compared to most of the other restriction codes.

 

[RJ]

Thanks, that's good to know. Are these the ones that say "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time"? I can imagine that being difficult to implement, at least compared to most of the other restriction codes.

Presume so - come unstuck with that one before as staff at Liverpool booking office and travel centre refused to sell me a Super Off Peak ticket. I was leaving at 16:24 and my journey involved the use of a connecting train. The staff and supervisor went staunchly with what the journey planner told them, that the Super Off Peak wasn't valid. Despite having 15 minutes spare to buy a ticket, I wasn't able to get the Super Off Peak ticket from them and they weren't available from the TVM. I gave up and bought an Off Peak ticket. Never did get the difference back

If restriction text is too complicated for even the railway's own staff to work with, more should be done to get it right in the journey planner.

 

[Starmill]

Theoretically, is the ticket valid on those trains

Yes, unequivocally.

can the unpublished restrictions trump the actual text of the restriction code?

No.

Practically, will my friend actually get hassled from guards or gateline staff for using that ticket on those trains?

It's very unlikely.

Can this problem be fixed easily?

Very easily.

Who should I contact to do so?

GWR. But to save you the bother I sincerely doubt you will get anywhere.

 

[Starmill]

If restriction text is too complicated for even the railway's own staff to work with, more should be done to get it right in the journey planner.

This would likely require an overhaul of the industry's data systems. For the sake of a handful of WMT Super Off-Peak flows - not going to happen.

The restriction, as it stands, relies on logic that simply isn't available within the existing data structure. A number of other products TOCs issue fall into this category, including things like the Senior Railcard time restrictions and Saver Half fares.

Instead of improving the journey planners, I would argue train operators should be forced to withdraw these incompatible restrictions.

 

[Tw99]

I did actually email GWR about this very issue a few months ago. The response I got didn't really recognise the problem so was generally unhelpful.

I also don't think your friend will have any trouble with this ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, that's good to know. Are these the ones that say "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time"? I can imagine that being difficult to implement, at least compared to most of the other restriction codes.

Yes, it's that, and there is no way to implement it other than splitting the code down to individual station level.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Instead of improving the journey planners, I would argue train operators should be forced to withdraw these incompatible restrictions.

The problem with this is that they will "withdraw" them by making them stricter, i.e. making this Reading case genuinely not valid on SWR, or making the LNR Super Off Peak near useless.

 

[RJ]

This would likely require an overhaul of the industry's data systems. For the sake of a handful of WMT Super Off-Peak flows - not going to happen.

The restriction, as it stands, relies on logic that simply isn't available within the existing data structure. A number of other products TOCs issue fall into this category, including things like the Senior Railcard time restrictions and Saver Half fares.

Instead of improving the journey planners, I would argue train operators should be forced to withdraw these incompatible restrictions.

Hmmm - may be a painful exercise to get it in, but what about some codes to try and get some of the more popular routes validated?

Take journeys from Euston for example. If a new restriction code was created for the Super Off Peak tickets with a 16.29 departure restriction at Euston and arrival restriction at Rugby between say, 17:39 and 20:39, would that not let Journey Planner offer journey opportunties starting as late as 16:13 from Euston?

 

[IrishDave]

Yes, unequivocally.

No.

It's very unlikely.

Very easily.

GWR. But to save you the bother I sincerely doubt you will get anywhere.

I did actually email GWR about this very issue a few months ago. The response I got didn't really recognise the problem so was generally unhelpful.

I also don't think your friend will have any trouble with this ticket.

Thank you both for your advice — that's about what I expected. I'll pass it on to my friend, and hopefully they'll have a hassle-free journey. I might try emailing GWR if I get the time, but I won't hold out much hope of getting it resolved.

Ironically, I noticed that the service that for which that particular unpublished restriction is intended now departs at 19:13, so in theory it isn't actually barred by the unpublished restrictions!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To fix this one all I think they need to do is change "on any TOC" to "on GWR" for all the evening ones.

 

[A Challenge]

That doesn't fix the similar problems for the similar problem on the North Downs Line unless SWR takes it over though.

 

[yorkie]

1. Can this problem be fixed easily? Who should I contact to do so?

Thanks in advance for any and all assistance.

GWR were contacted and failed to fix it.

If anyone buys these tickets online and finds out they have been overcharged, they are not only entitled to a refund of the difference, but the evidence can be used against GWR to demonstrate a consumer law breach.

 

[yorkie]

To fix this one all I think they need to do is change "on any TOC" to "on GWR" for all the evening ones.

No. That does not fix it.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

No. That does not fix it.

What it needs to say is "not valid on Inter-City trains."

When it was a split franchise between Thames and Great Western that wasn't too difficult. But I agree that the current implementation is a mess.

 

[kieron]

I notice that some other restriction codes have "not valid on the following trains" restrictions for certain trains. Could this be used to do what they're trying to do with these ones, or is there a problem with that?

 

[yorkie]

I notice that some other restriction codes have "not valid on the following trains" restrictions for certain trains. Could this be used to do what they're trying to do with these ones, or is there a problem with that?

Yes that method could be used.

It would need to be kept up-to-date.

In their current state, the time windows are allowing at least one 'InterCity' train, which was re-timed, while disallowing many trains for which there is no restriction contractually applying.

 

[FenMan]

Some afternoon peak North Downs Line departures from Reading have also been caught up by similarly-worded restrictions, with rail planners disallowing them on certain tickets. (I haven't checked to see if any are currently affected).