Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Class 170101]

It's understood the North TPE changes will be happening and Northern have to plan around them, so they'll be a half-hourly service from Victoria to the Airport regardless. Taking that in to account I don't think there's any justification for Northern introducing a Victoria-Airport using diesel stock when other routes urgently need more capacity and they won't have enough diesel trains to make all the improvements. Trains between Manchester and the airport have plenty of empty seats and Northern running a 3rd hourly Victoria-Airport service will create an inconsistent service frequency.

Surely it would possible to run EMUs between Victoria and the Airport in lieu of the DMUs albeit the connections would be (almost certainly) bust compared to the through train? (Either Class 319s or Class 323s)

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Surely it would possible to run EMUs between Victoria and the Airport in lieu of the DMUs albeit the connections would be (almost certainly) bust compared to the through train? (Either Class 319s or Class 323s)

Sounds like a good idea. Except that there may not be sufficient platform capacity at Victoria for additional terminating services, especially coming from the airport which would have to use one of platforms 3-6.

 

[Class 170101]

Sounds like a good idea. Except that there may not be sufficient platform capacity at Victoria for additional terminating services, especially coming from the airport which would have to use one of platforms 3-6.

Couldn't the service from east of Victoria terminating at Victoria be diverted into eastern facing bays (I thought someone said there were some that don't see much use)?

 

[Deerfold]

Were all the trains uploaded though? There were some obviously missing services on some routes.

User groups who got the preview timetables were complaining about significantly earlier services from Manchester, despite later services from Leeds. However, as these were not widely distributed, I've not seen them.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Couldn't the service from east of Victoria terminating at Victoria be diverted into eastern facing bays (I thought someone said there were some that don't see much use)?

Yes it could. But that doesn't help with the Airport leg of the service. Note also that many timetable changes at Victoria have come about to reduce the number of turnbacks from the west to the lowest level possible due to the lack of platform capacity. That's an important driver behind the linking up of services from the west to Rochdale and Stalybridge and the creation of new/additional bay platforms at those particular stations. The terminating capacity has been more easily created away from Victoria. Short of demolishing the Arena (not going to happen) it's just about the only way forward. And terminating Ordsall Chord services at Oxford Road isn't much better due to a similar shortage of capacity. But with 4 platforms nowadays at Manchester Airport it makes for a much more operationally sensible terminus.

 

[transmanche]

There is a 2N25 1933 Middlesbrough to Carlisle which starts on Sunday 24th June, seems strange it doesn't start on the timetable change.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y29243/2018/06/24/advanced

Possibly due to only a handful of services being uploaded yet?

(BTW, if you're hinting that this is Northen Connect service then I don't think it is. There are also Carlisle to Whitby and Carlisle to Nunthorpe services and they're all class 2 stoppers via the Durham Coast line.)

 

[stu99]

Possibly due to only a handful of services being uploaded yet?

(BTW, if you're hinting that this is Northen Connect service then I don't think it is. There are also Carlisle to Whitby and Carlisle to Nunthorpe services and they're all class 2 stoppers via the Durham Coast line.)

I realised that might be the case, after I posed it.
And no I wasn't as that Middlesbrough one is via the coast, however I think the connect services might be via the coast as I don't think Stillington has been cleared yet. I posted about the others further up this thread There is a 1N67 Newcastle to Carlisle on Monday to Saturday, which being an express passenger might be a connect?
Although I am aware that there is still the majority to be uploaded.

 

[northwichcat]

I realised that might be the case, after I posed it.
And no I wasn't as that Middlesbrough one is via the coast, however I think the connect services might be via the coast as I don't think Stillington has been cleared yet. I posted about the others further up this thread There is a 1N67 Newcastle to Carlisle on Monday to Saturday, which being an express passenger might be a connect?
Although I am aware that there is still the majority to be uploaded.

There's a possibly there's weekend engineering works meaning 24th June is the first Sunday the full service can run. I don't think any services will officially be called Connect before December 2018, even if they are the same services which will be branded Connect afterwards.

 

[northwichcat]

Could do with Northern confirming a little about what's happening - got a gig in Manchester and trying to work out if I can get a train to somewhere reasonable to get a taxi home from or if I need to book a hotel before they got too expensive.

The last trains in the times originally uploaded were significantly earlier.

Presuming you're talking about Victoria-Leeds services. There's a 23:20 Victoria-Leeds showing in RTT on 21st May: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y23140/2018/05/21/advanced which is just 3 minutes earlier than the current last train.

 

[Starmill]

The majority of Northern and TPE services (including all Yorkshire to Blackpool services) were removed from the system before tickets were available to buy. While you can buy tickets from ticket offices more than 12 weeks in advance they can't tell you what the train times will be for certain if there's a timetable change date between when you buy your ticket and when you travel.

This isn't true. Trainline (and trainline based sites, including Northern's own website, although this had a shorter booking horizon) was selling tickets based on that timetable for several weeks.

VTWC were selling tickets against post-May itineraries in January, with - unless I'm mistaken - no warning

Trainline based sites don't produce a warning. As far as I am aware, they never have.

 

[Deerfold]

Presuming you're talking about Victoria-Leeds services. There's a 23:20 Victoria-Leeds showing in RTT on 21st May: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y23140/2018/05/21/advanced which is just 3 minutes earlier than the current last train.

To be clearer, this is on a Saturday. For which the latest train currently on RTT is before 0700.

Apologies for not being clearer, I wasn't expecting someone to be so keen to show I was wrong, just hoping Northern load up their timetables soon.

 

[northwichcat]

To be clearer, this is on a Saturday. For which the latest train currently on RTT is before 0700.

Apologies for not being clearer, I wasn't expecting someone to be so keen to show I was wrong, just hoping Northern load up their timetables soon.

There's been some services added in the past 24 hours but overall (for all routes) there's still a lot missing.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

There's been some services added in the past 24 hours but overall (for all routes) there's still a lot missing.

There certainly is: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...27/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

 

[stu99]

http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/12769515/21/05/18
This seems to be one of the few that were done yesterday/this morning.

 

[northwichcat]

There certainly is: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...27/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

Most Sunday services are missing. You're lucky that most Mon-Sat services for Congleton are there and have been for a few weeks.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Yes, because it's not changed that much in weekday, sunday (and one service M-F mornings) were supposed to go to Blackpool so that's why they're missing, However it seems the 0825 is still missing.

Also the 1710 Deansgate to Stoke is missing (probably permanently?) - I've been on this service a couple of times but now avoid it at all costs as it's always packed.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, because it's not changed that much in weekday, sunday (and one service M-F mornings) were supposed to go to Blackpool so that's why they're missing, However it seems the 0825 is still missing.

Also the 1710 Deansgate to Stoke is missing (probably permanently?) - I've been on this service a couple of times but now avoid it at all costs as it's always packed.

Although, the North TPE changes mean the times of paths Northern have available in and out of Manchester have changed. It seems they've planned to keep most Stoke services near enough the same as now because they are the most difficult ones to path.

 

[skpudding]

Also the 1710 Deansgate to Stoke is missing (probably permanently?) - I've been on this service a couple of times but now avoid it at all costs as it's always packed.

I thought that XX:09 at DGT was part of the standard path for the new Blackpool to Macclesfield service.

I guess it remains to be seen if we get part of the service at peak times or elsewhere

 

[jfollows]

Although, the North TPE changes mean the times of paths Northern have available in and out of Manchester have changed. It seems they've planned to keep most Stoke services near enough the same as now because they are the most difficult ones to path.

1O28 17:27 Manchester-Bournemouth shown currently in the new timetable as continuing to go via Wilmslow (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C76896/2018/05/22/advanced) and I believe that this and a morning down XC working are only routed this way to free up a path for a Stoke-Manchester extra service. The implication I take to be that the evening path made available would be much the same as the one used by the existing Deansgate-Stoke service.

 

[scrapy]

NOW CONFIRMED
Northern have stated the following to TFGM

Off peak extra services to Manchester to Greenbank, Blackpool to Macclesfield not happening until December. Sunday services on the Chester and Stoke routes to remain at current levels until December which is disappointing as this can't be blamed on electrification delays or lack of stock. Instead of running Blackpool to Macclesfield on weekdays they will run a diesel Preston to Manchester Piccadilly service via Bolton.

Off peak hourly to Manchester to Sheffield starting May as is 2tph Manchester to Buxton 3tph to Hazel Grove.

Preston to Ormskirk hourly from May

Manchester Airport to Blackpool to run via Wigan from May

As expected Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly via airport extended to Liverpool via Chat Moss from May

Alderley Edge to Manchester via Stockport extended to Wigan via Bolton from May

Express Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington starts May.

Wigan to Manchester via Atherton to be 3tph rather than proposed 4tph

Evening services at Moses Gate,Farnworth and Kearsley confirmed from May.

Planned Leeds to Lancaster/Carlisle, York to Hull, Leeds to Wakefield & Knottingley enhancements all starting May

Just to add regarding the 17.08 Deansgate to Stoke I understand that this will still run although possibly starting from Manchester Picc.

I'd be very interested to know why Northern can't provide the 2tph between Macclesfield and Manchester and the 4tph between Hazel Grove and Manchester required in their franchise agreement as these are both electrified routes and electric stock isn't their problem.

 

[northwichcat]

Why is Alderley Edge to Wigan going ahead? Even if the 769s were ready it would make more sense to put them on Manchester to Blackpool (via Bolton) services and then have a diesel service from the Buxton or Mid-Cheshire line continuing to Wigan.

It's also worth noting 2tph to Buxton is not a franchise requirement but there were said to be difficulties in providing 2tph to New Mills Newton, which is a franchise requirement.

I notice there's no mention of Chester to Leeds but I'm guessing that's not going ahead. Is there any news on what will happen with regards to Manchester Airport to Cumbria services?

I'd be very interested to know why Northern can't provide the 2tph between Macclesfield and Manchester and the 4tph between Hazel Grove and Manchester required in their franchise agreement as these are both electrified routes and electric stock isn't their problem.

Agreed.

 

[johntea]

Three key improvements to rail services in Yorkshire will not happen in May as promised because of delays to an electrification scheme in the North West. Northern was hoping to run four services an hour between Leeds and Harrogate and introduce a fast service between York and Leeds via Micklefield as part of proposes timetable changes.

But the planned improvements, as well as an extended service between Huddersfield and Castleford, via Wakefield, have been postponed, with no set time for completion.

The rail operator announced today that trains would stop every half an hour at Kirkstall Forge station on the Leeds-Bradford service, compared with the current rate of one every hour.

There will also two trains an hour between Leeds and Knottingley/Pontefract, and an extension to the service between Leeds and Southport, via Dewsbury and Brighouse. From May 20 extra services will run between Leeds, Lancaster and Carlisle on weekdays and Sundays.

Read more at: https://www.harrogateadvertiser.co....o-manchester-electrification-scheme-1-9075681

 

[M28361M]

There's a similar article on the Liverpool Echo website: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-train-service-help-scouse-14441335

Northern’s May 2018 service improvements are as follows:

Manchester – Wigan - Southport

Six weekday trains per hour will now be provided between Wigan and Manchester:

Three trains per hour via Atherton, comprising Kirkby – Victoria, Southport – Blackburn and Southport – Leeds (fourth train per hour provided at peak times)

Two trains per hour via Bolton, comprising Wigan – Victoria – Stalybridge and Wigan – Piccadilly – Alderley Edge

Hourly non-stop electric service between Manchester Oxford Road and Wigan North Western

Two morning peak services from Southport – Wigan – Piccadilly - Alderley Edge departing at 6.17am and 7.17am

Two evening peak services from Alderley Edge – Piccadilly - Wigan – Southport departing at 4.49pm and 5.49pm from Alderley Edge and 5.19pm and 6.18pm from Manchester Piccadilly

Liverpool – Manchester

New hourly Liverpool – Manchester Airport service via Warrington which replaces current TPE service

Liverpool – Manchester via Newton-le-Willows stopping service will operate to Oxford Road, Piccadilly and Manchester Airport then continuing to Crewe

Some Manchester Oxford Road – Liverpool stopping services will not be able to call at Deansgate

The following services will see their improvements deferred:

New hourly Chester – Leeds via Manchester Victoria will not now be introduced until December

Disappointing that the Chester service is postponed, but I guess they had to prioritise the changes which tie in with the TPE recast. Personally I'm looking forward to being able to catch a direct train from South Parkway to Manchester Airport.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why is Alderley Edge to Wigan going ahead? Even if the 769s were ready it would make more sense to put them on Manchester to Blackpool (via Bolton) services and then have a diesel service from the Buxton or Mid-Cheshire line continuing to Wigan.

Presumably they can't disentangle the Alderley Edge-Manchester service for EMUs because of the interworking with Stalybridge/Southport services as well as Wigan.
No doubt one day it will be run by 769s.
The Echo piece does confirm EMU Manchester-Wigan NW, so that's 3tph EMU via Chat Moss (Scotland, Blackpool, Wigan).

 

[northwichcat]

Presumably they can't disentangle the Alderley Edge-Manchester service for EMUs because of the interworking with Stalybridge/Southport services as well as Wigan.

I can just see Northern putting a pair of 150s on a peak time service to Alderley Edge and keeping a 2 car Pacer on the 17:40ish departure from Knutsford towards Manchester, which has loaded over 250 passengers on occasions. It's not so much extra off-peak services the Mid-Cheshire line is crying out for, it's extra services going towards Northwich in the morning peak and extra services going towards Manchester in the evening peak, as well as the services starting/terminating at Stockport being extended to Manchester.

The Echo piece does confirm EMU Manchester-Wigan NW, so that's 3tph EMU via Chat Moss (Scotland, Blackpool, Wigan).

It says hourly Manchester to Wigan NW non-stop between Manchester Oxford Rd and Wigan so presumably that means the keeping the existing TPE electric service, instead of getting a diesel Northern Connect service to Barrow/Windermere.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

The deferment of the Chester to Leeds service is painful. With the scrapping of the Liverpool stopper to Man Vic and therefore the connectivity at NLW, there is no easy way now to get from Chester to Victoria. Fine, you can go to Piccadilly and walk or get a tram, but that's a blooming pain for a commuter. 6 months of purgatory ahead ☹️

 

[northwichcat]

The deferment of the Chester to Leeds service is painful. With the scrapping of the Liverpool stopper to Man Vic and therefore the connectivity at NLW, there is no easy way now to get from Chester to Victoria. Fine, you can go to Piccadilly and walk or get a tram, but that's a blooming pain for a commuter. 6 months of purgatory ahead ☹️

The Liverpool-Victoria-Newcastle will stop at Newton-le-Willows from May and they'll run non-stop to Victoria. Trains from Newton-le-Willows will be at around 20 to the hour and the westbound services will arrive at Newton-le-Willows at around 10 to the hour. So if services run to time they'll connect well with the standard pattern ATW services!

 

[scrapy]

The deferment of the Chester to Leeds service is painful. With the scrapping of the Liverpool stopper to Man Vic and therefore the connectivity at NLW, there is no easy way now to get from Chester to Victoria. Fine, you can go to Piccadilly and walk or get a tram, but that's a blooming pain for a commuter. 6 months of purgatory ahead ☹️

There has been no confirmation either way whether or not the Chester to Leeds will run. Northern have so far released two contradicting pieces of information that I've seen on this.

 

[scrapy]

It says hourly Manchester to Wigan NW non-stop between Manchester Oxford Rd and Wigan so presumably that means the keeping the existing TPE electric service, instead of getting a diesel Northern Connect service to Barrow/Windermere.

I think it will be the Blackpool to Manchester Airport. The TPE service won't stop at Oxford Rd or Wigan.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

There has been no confirmation either way whether or not the Chester to Leeds will run. Northern have so far released two contradicting pieces of information that I've seen on this.

I hope you are correct.