Northern / TransPennine Timetable Recast.

[Geeves]

It does amuse me how angry TbirdFrank is about Stalybridge. I don't see him sticking up for poor old Birchwood, which does have a good passenger flow to Leeds and will very shortly be demoted to 142, 150 and 156s AND lose 80% of its long distance trains.

Even better is a lot of the Birchwood passengers have no idea what is coming!

 

[northwichcat]

It does amuse me how angry TbirdFrank is about Stalybridge. I don't see him sticking up for poor old Birchwood, which does have a good passenger flow to Leeds and will very shortly be demoted to 142, 150 and 156s AND lose 80% of its long distance trains.

Even better is a lot of the Birchwood passengers have no idea what is coming!

The Liverpool to Manchester Airport service (which will call at Birchwood) should be getting 195s next year, although I accept initially the replacement service will be operated by much older trains.

 

[Bantamzen]

The Liverpool to Newcastle service will be stopping at Newton-le-Willows and should be run by 802s from next year. All TPEs new stock are going to be 5 coaches / carriages; 4 standard and 1 first class. They and the refurbished 185s are supposed to have very similar level of facilities and comfort.

1 hour 23 minute journey time from Liverpool to Leeds half hourly service is a huge improvement compared with 5 years ago. Hopefully there will be more progress over the next 5 - 10 years to reduce it to under an hour.

Ah, so it'll be 802s if I choose the Newton option, although I might still be tempted to occasionally use the Scarborough-Liverpools to Manchester and change there for a ride in the MKVs!

It does amuse me how angry TbirdFrank is about Stalybridge. I don't see him sticking up for poor old Birchwood, which does have a good passenger flow to Leeds and will very shortly be demoted to 142, 150 and 156s AND lose 80% of its long distance trains.

Even better is a lot of the Birchwood passengers have no idea what is coming!

Don't forget Warrington, whilst not losing it's Yorkshire connection entirely with the new Northern Chester service still faces a longer journey time to Leeds, losing York & beyond in the process!

 

[Geeves]

True! At least it does have the EMT stopping every hour, Birchwood only gets that luxury in the peaks. I suppose when the 195s arrive it will ease the pain but still, its going to be quite a shock to those long term TPE users!

 

[Chester1]

True! At least it does have the EMT stopping every hour, Birchwood only gets that luxury in the peaks. I suppose when the 195s arrive it will ease the pain but still, its going to be quite a shock to those long term TPE users!

A downgrade in CLC express services was inevitable from the moment Chat Moss route was chosen for electrification. The Chester-Leeda service through Victoria will be useful considering its growing importance as an interchange. Warrington will have a high frequency of services to Manchester (6tph) and Liverpool (5tph) but none will be very fast, its not a bad outcome but not good either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A downgrade in CLC express services was inevitable from the moment Chat Moss route was chosen for electrification. The Chester-Leeda service through Victoria will be useful considering its growing importance as an interchange. Warrington will have a high frequency of services to Manchester (6tph) and Liverpool (5tph) but none will be very fast, its not a bad outcome but not good either.

I'm still leaning towards the idea that long-term extending Merseyrail at 4tph to Warrington Central (withdrawing CLC service from Lime St entirely) and operating a high frequency stopping[1] DMU service from there to Manchester, but a loss of through trains on the route, would actually be best.

[1] I'd figure 2tph calling Birchwood, Irlam, Flixton, Urmston, Deansgate and Oxford Road, and 2tph calling at all stations. You could drop one of the Glazebrook calls but for the difference it'll make consistent is probably better.

 

[Chester1]

I'm still leaning towards the idea that long-term extending Merseyrail at 4tph to Warrington Central (withdrawing CLC service from Lime St entirely) and operating a high frequency stopping[1] DMU service from there to Manchester, but a loss of through trains on the route, would actually be best.

[1] I'd figure 2tph calling Birchwood, Irlam, Flixton, Urmston, Deansgate and Oxford Road, and 2tph calling at all stations. You could drop one of the Glazebrook calls but for the difference it'll make consistent is probably better.

The cheaper and simpler solution would be to use 769s on Lime Street to Oxford Road stopping services. Its a regular argument on this site but I keep to my opinion that the chances of CLC third rail electrification are pretty much zero.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm still leaning towards the idea that long-term extending Merseyrail at 4tph to Warrington Central (withdrawing CLC service from Lime St entirely) and operating a high frequency stopping[1] DMU service from there to Manchester, but a loss of through trains on the route, would actually be best.

[1] I'd figure 2tph calling Birchwood, Irlam, Flixton, Urmston, Deansgate and Oxford Road, and 2tph calling at all stations. You could drop one of the Glazebrook calls but for the difference it'll make consistent is probably better.

Whilst there may not be as much Liverpool <> Manchester traffic along this route once TPE move entirely to Chat Moss, you're forgetting the hourly EMT which can be very popular with Liverpool / Warrington passengers travelling beyond Manchester towards Sheffield & beyond. Plus there's the little matter of extending the third rail to Warrington & reworking the station to allow enough Merseyrail & Northern terminators without tripping over each other. I think NR have some more pressing priorities than this.Taking the TPE route isn't going to be popular in that part of the world, let alone removing the EMT too just to extend Merseyrail by a few miles.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think Warrington losing it's fast services to either Liverpool or Manchester in favour of a high frequency stopper would go down well. Chester having 4 stoppers per hour to Liverpool isn't popular with everyone, as a number of passengers would prefer 2 stoppers and 2 semi-fasts. Warrington has a higher population than Chester and passengers are used to there being semi-fasts so I think the number of objections would be far greater.

 

[BMIFlyer]

The unfortunate thing is at present Victoria-Huddersfield-Leeds is not faster than Piccadilly-Huddersfield-Leeds is currently. Liverpool services have been speeded up by being moved to Chat Moss and only having one intermediate call between Liverpool and Manchester instead of three and only calling at one station in central Manchester instead of two.

Currently the Liverpool that runs Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Leeds (with Stalybridge and Dewsbury added) is 59 minutes between MAN and LDS. The MVC-HUD-LDS (also from LIV) does the same journey in 52 minutes. So 7 minutes faster, currently.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I don't think Warrington losing it's fast services to either Liverpool or Manchester in favour of a high frequency stopper would go down well. Chester having 4 stoppers per hour to Liverpool isn't popular with everyone, as a number of passengers would prefer 2 stoppers and 2 semi-fasts. Warrington has a higher population than Chester and passengers are used to there being semi-fasts so I think the number of objections would be far greater.

Warrington is gaining a LIV-Man Air service (15x operated) calling at South Pkwy, Warrington C, Birchwood, Oxford Rd and Picc.

 

[northwichcat]

Currently the Liverpool that runs Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Leeds (with Stalybridge and Dewsbury added) is 59 minutes between MAN and LDS. The MVC-HUD-LDS (also from LIV) does the same journey in 52 minutes. So 7 minutes faster, currently.

I was meaning based on the current times in RTT for Manchester Airport to Leeds services once the service are diverted via Victoria, compared to the times for them running in to Piccadilly via Guide Bridge at present.

 

[northwichcat]

Warrington is gaining a LIV-Man Air service (15x operated) calling at South Pkwy, Warrington C, Birchwood, Oxford Rd and Picc.

I know - I mentioned it in a previous post, it should also get 195s when they are introduced. However, if you read everything in the thread, rather than selectively reading certain bits, there was discussion about whether withdrawing the fast services and extending Merseyrail to Warrington would be a good option long term.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I was meaning based on the current times in RTT for Manchester Airport to Leeds services once the service are diverted via Victoria, compared to the times for them running in to Piccadilly via Guide Bridge at present.

I see

Let me have a look. Yes I see not calling at DEW makes the trip from Picc currently 50 mins, but 1hr 1 minute Picc to Leeds from the new timetable with the same pattern, but 48 mins from MCV on that same train. It will be sped up though during CP6 with line speed improvements.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I know - I mentioned it in a previous post, it should also get 195s when they are introduced. However, if you read everything in the thread, rather than selectively reading certain bits, there was discussion about whether withdrawing the fast services and extending Merseyrail to Warrington would be a good option long term.

No it wouldn't.

I have read the full thread though thank you, I just elect to comment on the issues relevant to myself.

 

[Philip]

I like the idea of splitting the CLC line between high frequency diesel stopping trains at the eastern end and converting the western end to an extension of Merseyrail. The services from Bank Quay both to Liverpool and Manchester should see that Warrington still retains a fast link to both cities.

As for the EMT service; if running to Liverpool via the Chat Moss isn't an option, perhaps it could merge with the Northern Connect Cumbria service and become a Norwich to Barrow/Windermere service?

 

[Chester1]

I like the idea of splitting the CLC line between high frequency diesel stopping trains at the eastern end and converting the western end to an extension of Merseyrail. The services from Bank Quay both to Liverpool and Manchester should see that Warrington still retains a fast link to both cities.

As for the EMT service; if running to Liverpool via the Chat Moss isn't an option, perhaps it could merge with the Northern Connect Cumbria service and become a Norwich to Barrow/Windermere service?

Neither will happen. Liverpool South Parkway is the natural terminus of the Merseyrail Northern Line. Hunts Cross is the terminus for historic reasons. The EMT might one day be diverted via Chat Moss, lack of capacity through Piccadilly for another fast replacement service by Northern is the biggest reason preventing it. Ideally I think the EMT service should be transferred to TPE, diverted by Chat Moss and replaced should with second Northern Connect CLC service - Liverpool to Sheffield that runs semi fast through the Hope Valley (combined with another semi fast Piccadilly to Sheffield serving remaining stops and removing the need for any all stops service). This is all off topic not possible without significant infrastructure upgrades!

I am glad the TPE changes are finally happening but I am concerned they will immediately increase overcrowding. The second Newcastle service will require more than the Chat Moss diversion saves. The Mark III sets are supposed to cover 185 upgrade work not provide capacity for extended services and 3 standard and 1 First Class carriages will have less seats than a doubled 185s.

 

[TheGarner]

I for one will definitely miss the fast TPE service between Warrington and Piccadilly when these changes take place.

 

[notlob.divad]

Don't forget Warrington, whilst not losing it's Yorkshire connection entirely with the new Northern Chester service still faces a longer journey time to Leeds, losing York & beyond in the process!

Agree, which is one reason why in my opinion the extra TPE service from the North East should have gone via Warrington to Chester rather than a 2nd to the airport. Keeping Warrington and adding Chester to the TPE map.

To late for that now though.

 

[185143]

It does amuse me how angry TbirdFrank is about Stalybridge. I don't see him sticking up for poor old Birchwood, which does have a good passenger flow to Leeds and will very shortly be demoted to 142, 150 and 156s AND lose 80% of its long distance trains.

Even better is a lot of the Birchwood passengers have no idea what is coming!

Oh we do...

 

[BMIFlyer]

Oh we do...

Yes you don’t lose any services, you’ll have a same calling pattern train between Liverpool and Manc as per what TPE have now except the origin and destination will be Man Airport.

 

[185143]

Yes you don’t lose any services, you’ll have a same calling pattern train between Liverpool and Manc as per what TPE have now except the origin and destination will be Man Airport.

However said train will be more expensive than currently-significantly more so in the evening peak thanks to TPE only fares, and will not be nearly as pleasant to travel on as a refurbished 185. The last departure from Leeds to Birchwood is currently 22:09 (with no later options by changing in Manchester). I'll be pleasantly surprised if departing Leeds at this time is still possible. It should be interesting to see how Northern propose to replace the capacity of a 6 car 185 too... I mean-how long will it be until a 2 car pacer rolls in on the 07:15 from Liverpool...?

I for one will likely be permantly shifting my travel to Newton-le-Willows.

 

[YorkshireBear]

However said train will be more expensive than currently-significantly more so in the evening peak thanks to TPE only fares, and will not be nearly as pleasant to travel on as a refurbished 185. The last departure from Leeds to Birchwood is currently 22:09 (with no later options by changing in Manchester). I'll be pleasantly surprised if departing Leeds at this time is still possible. It should be interesting to see how Northern propose to replace the capacity of a 6 car 185 too... I mean-how long will it be until a 2 car pacer rolls in on the 07:15 from Liverpool...?

I for one will likely be permantly shifting my travel to Newton-le-Willows.

While in have reasonable sympathy for you. You won't need a 6 car as you will not have the same quantity of long distance passengers. For example no Liverpool to beyond Manchester passengers.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I for one will definitely miss the fast TPE service between Warrington and Piccadilly when these changes take place.

Why? There will be a direct Northern replacement (destination Manchester Airport).

 

[TheGarner]

Why? There will be a direct Northern replacement (destination Manchester Airport).

Old stock, often like to strike (I understand the reasons why) but I'll see what happens when the timetable is released to see what times they will be running at.

 

[LowLevel]

That's the same service that it has at the minute. I have said before that it's crazy that a tiny Derbyshire village has 3tph in the evening peak, while some of the busiest suburban commuter stations in Greater Manchester do not have any peak extras at all.

There is only one TransPennine train to Manchester in the morning and one back in the evening that serves Chinley.

Chinley is a big railhead station for a lot of affluent villages and to have a 6 figure patronage level with it's level of service is pretty impressive.

Few people travelling are actually from Chinley and the platforms are pretty full in the peaks.

Dore and Totley is the same - you'd be amazed just how many people use this little 1 platform suburban station to commute to Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

Chinley is a big railhead station for a lot of affluent villages and to have a 6 figure patronage level with it's level of service is pretty impressive.

Few people travelling are actually from Chinley and the platforms are pretty full in the peaks.

Dore and Totley is the same - you'd be amazed just how many people use this little 1 platform suburban station to commute to Manchester.

Is it? Edale gets 90,000 and Chinley has 9 times the population of Edale, while Edale doesn't get the peak time TPE and EMT extras. Both stations attract a very large number of walkers/ramblers who are using off-peak and weekend services to both Manchester and Sheffield.

 

[LowLevel]

Is it? Edale gets 90,000 and Chinley has 9 times the population of Edale, while Edale doesn't get the peak time TPE and EMT extras. Both stations attract a very large number of walkers/ramblers who are using off-peak and weekend services to both Manchester and Sheffield.

All of the Hope Valley stations are popular with walkers. Dore and Chinley are by far the most popular with commuters. It's very much a route whereby the freight traffic has taken priority over the passenger service despite demand (quite reasonably) not helped by the antiquated signalling system. These stations are obviously quite fortunate though that it's possibly for regional services to call as not all routes have them.

 

[185143]

While in have reasonable sympathy for you. You won't need a 6 car as you will not have the same quantity of long distance passengers. For example no Liverpool to beyond Manchester passengers.

I used to commute on the 07:46 from Birchwood-the mass exodus at Occy Road was quite something!

It was often difficult enough to board as a 6 car 185. Anything less-unless the Lime Street commuters are discouraged from using it-we'll have no chance. I know someone who used to (and as far as I know still does) use that train from South Parkway in First Class. If a 3 car unit rolled in, he'd have to stand-suggesting that around half of the passengers on that service have come from Lime Street

 

[Starmill]

I have always thought that the main business from Chinley is people from Chapel who do not want to walk up the steep hill, or people from Buxton who think that the Buxton line is too slow and uncomfortable.