Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[Downthelane]

This lack of finalisation regarding the southern end of GN drags on.

Has anyone found a clear explanation why the Semi-Fast services from WGC are still missing?

There are thousands of daily seats lost if these services are scrapped.

Does anyone have the draft timetable for this 'Metro' service, I would like to review what that looked like and where these services were supposed to slot in.

At face value it would appear adding Hatfield and Pottes Bar stop on the faster services sufficies and replaces?

 

[radamfi]

Overnight trains still missing.

 

[notverydeep]

My perception is that the number of journeys from Knebworth-Potters Bar to Arlesey-Peterborough is comparatively small - the predominant flows seem to be Hatfield-Stevenage, Welwyn-Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth, and to Cambridge itself. I'd add the caveat that this is only based on perception - so official data may prove my observations to be wide of the mark.

To be fair, I have done the timetable an injustice with my point about commuters to Peterborough from south of Stevenage as there are still some good options for the flows in the new timetable. The connection from the train from WGC (and thus Potters Bar, Hatfield etc.) is 6 minutes rather than 12 minutes I clearly misread. Worse however was my schoolboy error overlooking the VTEC services. In my defense I was under the impression that VTEC trains served either Stevenage or Peterborough but not usually both. However, there are three useful SB services from Peterborough in the new timetable for return traffic at 1629, 1730 and 1829 and these give a 13 minute connection into the Southbound train to WGC etc. and an overall journey time of 52 / 53 minutes which isn't bad. Similar opportunities presumably exist in the current timetable, but I haven't checked.

Northbound there are similar opportunities for early or late commuters (0656 or 0856 from Welwyn Garden City) that have a longer wait at Stevenage but still manage about an hour overall. For a commuter in the middle of this period, the 6 minute connection between the two GN services giving an overall 1 hour and 9 to 14 minutes. As you say however, these individual flows will be small in volume and I suspect (as others have said earlier in the thread) most Peterborough commuters from WGC, particularly if their destination isn't close to the station commute by way of the A1 - as my neighbour does...

 

[rmt4ever]

When will it be available to book advances on Southern ? This is just madness now

 

[radamfi]

When will it be available to book advances on Southern ? This is just madness now

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...l.co.uk&utm_medium=Carousel&utm_campaign=T-12

Network Rail is making temporary changes to the advanced availability of final timetables for up to six months from 20 May onwards, meaning these will be available later than normal.

This means that in a small number of instances, some services may be missing from our journey planner and you may not be able to book tickets until less than the usual 12 weeks before travel. Where it is only possible to book tickets less than 12 weeks in advance, train operators will still offer the same range of discounted tickets. If trains are cancelled, the normal compensation mechanisms will apply - if people have booked on a train that is cancelled, rescheduled, or where their reservation will not be honoured, and they decide not to travel, they will be given a full refund. If people buy a ticket for a service affected by this change and then, at a later date advance tickets are made available which are at a cheaper fare, customers should book the advance fare for that service and then request a fee-free refund on their original ticket.

 

[GoatSarah]

I wouldn’t say they do that well. Sure they gain frequency, but their frequency is already 2tph at popular times in both directions, and they don’t gain any form of fast service to London - on the contrary in fact they are pretty much stuck with the stopping service to London, plus longer journey times and less comfortable trains to add insult to injury.

However, if you live there you're far more likely to be needing to come into Cambridge than London, and a train every half hour is much closer to a turn up and go service than one an hour.

 

[jon0844]

Has anyone found a clear explanation why the Semi-Fast services from WGC are still missing?

There are thousands of daily seats lost if these services are scrapped.

They're not scrapped, they just aren't on the system yet. Going forward they'll be trains running through the core.

(BTW, from next Monday some of the WGC-KGX semi fast trains will be 700s).

 

[jon0844]

Overnight trains still missing.

Sadly I think some of the cuts on late services north and soundbound may be as intended. Running a 12 car train that can't stop at many stations seems mad. We've had the 0135 as a 4 car train for years, stopping at almost all stations to get people home. Now it will run as a 12 and skip loads of stations.

As the current 0135 train is usually pretty empty by Stevenage, having deposited people at stations between Finsbury Park and Stevenage, it beggars belief that a train three times the length (and far more standing room) skips all the stops people are getting off at, so it can get fresh air to Peterborough a few minutes quicker!

Perhaps it's too soon for additional late trains, like a very early or late train to/from Gatwick Airport. I would hope that in the years ahead there must be some plans to expand services into the night?

 

[radamfi]

Sadly I think some of the cuts on late services north and soundbound may be as intended. Running a 12 car train that can't stop at many stations seems mad. We've had the 0135 as a 4 car train for years, stopping at almost all stations to get people home. Now it will run as a 12 and skip loads of stations.

As the current 0135 train is usually pretty empty by Stevenage, having deposited people at stations between Finsbury Park and Stevenage, it beggars belief that a train three times the length (and far more standing room) skips all the stops people are getting off at, so it can get fresh air to Peterborough a few minutes quicker!

Perhaps it's too soon for additional late trains, like a very early or late train to/from Gatwick Airport. I would hope that in the years ahead there must be some plans to expand services into the night?

There have been 24 hour trains to Three Bridges for as long as I can remember. The Southern service was scrapped last year at short notice, except on weekends, but Thameslink made extra stops to make up for it. Given that, is it likely that there would be further cuts to overnight Thameslink trains? The hourly weekend overnight Southern service still appears to be in place looking at RTT for 26/27 May so it would seem odd for there to be Southern but no Thameslink trains in the middle of the night.

 

[Minstral25]

There have been 24 hour trains to Three Bridges for as long as I can remember. The Southern service was scrapped last year at short notice, except on weekends, but Thameslink made extra stops to make up for it. Given that, is it likely that there would be further cuts to overnight Thameslink trains? The hourly weekend overnight Southern service still appears to be in place looking at RTT for 26/27 May so it would seem odd for there to be Southern but no Thameslink trains in the middle of the night.

IIRC Thameslink run the overnight services from May 20th except Saturday night when the core closes from 2am (Sunday) to around 9am Sunday for Maintenance. Thus the Southern trains running Sat night/Sun morning to replace missing Thameslink trains.

 

[radamfi]

IIRC Thameslink run the overnight services from May 20th except Saturday night when the core closes from 2am (Sunday) to around 9am Sunday for Maintenance. Thus the Southern trains running Sat night/Sun morning to replace missing Thameslink trains.

I can get the lack of trains on Sunday morning as we get that now, although the first one is currently at 0611.

According to RTT, Thameslink run the same overnight service on Friday night/Saturday morning as from Monday to Friday mornings, even though Southern is also running.

RTT is showing Thameslink trains leaving Three Bridges at 0004 and 0021, then nothing until 0346.

At the moment, there are trains at 0015, 0039, 0118, 0218, 0318 and 0351.

 

[Downthelane]

They're not scrapped, they just aren't on the system yet. Going forward they'll be trains running through the core.

Why can't they be added to the system yet, I am curious to understand what they delay is as they are the most 'controversial' changes as they will confirm the full impact on some key southern GN stations.

 

[Failed Unit]

Why can't they be added to the system yet, I am curious to understand what they delay is as they are the most 'controversial' changes as they will confirm the full impact on some key southern GN stations.

Maybe network rail realise that blocking the 2 track section 4 times per hour isn’t going to help thier delay minutes. The fact those and the Welwyn starters are missing could potentially be the issue?

 

[jellybaby]

(BTW, from next Monday some of the WGC-KGX semi fast trains will be 700s).

Oooh, do you know/can you tell which ones?

 

[OwenB]

I notice that the 17.51 KGX-CBG is due to wait at Finsbury Park for 4 minutes (17.57-18.01), is this likely to change? Seems a long time to stop for a semi-fast (for the first part of the journey).

 

[Failed Unit]

I notice that the 17.51 KGX-CBG is due to wait at Finsbury Park for 4 minutes (17.57-18.01), is this likely to change? Seems a long time to stop for a semi-fast (for the first part of the journey).

I don’t think so. The long wait at Finsbury Park is common on the new timetable.

 

[OwenB]

I don’t think so. The long wait at Finsbury Park is common on the new timetable.

Oh wow! If I'm travelling to Hatfield, that's quite a percentage increase on a journey.

 

[Failed Unit]

Oh wow! If I'm travelling to Hatfield, that's quite a percentage increase on a journey.

Couple that with the extra stop at potters bar going south, stuck on the slow and no direct trains to a Peterborough not much to look forward to.

 

[OwenB]

Couple that with the extra stop at potters bar going south, stuck on the slow and no direct trains to a Peterborough not much to look forward to.

A 29 minute journey instead of 22 minutes.. Oh well, just got to suck it up, I guess!

 

[notverydeep]

A 29 minute journey instead of 22 minutes.. Oh well, just got to suck it up, I guess!

Indeed, my commute will change from 18:22 King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City arrive 18:48 to 18:24 King's Cross to Welwyn North 18:41 depart 18:47 then Welwyn Garden City arrive 18:51. Even though this is one minute longer, it will still beat the direct service at 18:21 which doesn't get to WGC until 18:55 - 26 minutes increased to 34 minutes! Good job I already have a Welwyn North season ticket (despite mainly using WGC)...

 

[OwenB]

Indeed, my commute will change from 18:22 King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City arrive 18:48 to 18:24 King's Cross to Welwyn North 18:41 depart 18:47 then Welwyn Garden City arrive 18:51. Even though this is one minute longer, it will still beat the direct service at 18:21 which doesn't get to WGC until 18:55 - 26 minutes increased to 34 minutes! Good job I already have a Welwyn North season ticket (despite mainly using WGC)...

That's mad. I usually get the 17.58 KGX-HAT, one of the services that's not up yet... Sometimes get the 17.52 or 18.22, depending on whether I'm running early/late. The suspense is killing me..

 

[Failed Unit]

Indeed, my commute will change from 18:22 King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City arrive 18:48 to 18:24 King's Cross to Welwyn North 18:41 depart 18:47 then Welwyn Garden City arrive 18:51. Even though this is one minute longer, it will still beat the direct service at 18:21 which doesn't get to WGC until 18:55 - 26 minutes increased to 34 minutes! Good job I already have a Welwyn North season ticket (despite mainly using WGC)...

Do you really expect that journey will be possible? I expect the 1824 to skip stop Welwyn North frequently to avoid congestion. Or run late and miss the double back. Very little confidence the timetable will work because of the congestion they have created at Digswell.

 

[notverydeep]

Do you really expect that journey will be possible? I expect the 1824 to skip stop Welwyn North frequently to avoid congestion. Or run late and miss the double back. Very little confidence the timetable will work because of the congestion they have created at Digswell.

I think it will work sometimes. I think I will walk home from Welwyn North / have a pint in the Cowper Arms because I have missed the train back to WGC / curse my arrival at Knebworth / take the 18:21 resigned to my longer journey / still be at King's Cross at 19:00 cursing the disruption (delete as applicable) on other occasions...

 

[Skimble19]

They're not scrapped, they just aren't on the system yet. Going forward they'll be trains running through the core.

(BTW, from next Monday some of the WGC-KGX semi fast trains will be 700s).

Slightly off topic but has been mentioned previously so will provide an update, from Monday 12 car (FLU) 700s will be self dispatching from all stations between Arlesey to Huntingdon, excluding Sandy Platform 1 where manual dispatch will still be required. 365s and 387s will continue to be manually dispatched if 12 car. Considering the changes in May where all Thameslink services at these stations were to be 12 car this was pretty much inevitable.

If nobody beats me to it I’ll post the additional 8 car (RLU) 700 services that start on Monday tomorrow.

 

[FOH]

I met GTR planners a while ago and they are doing the same on Southern, inserting longer dwells. They said the current timetabled dwells are still largely based on slammers.

 

[Downthelane]

If nobody beats me to it I’ll post the additional 8 car (RLU) 700 services that start on Monday tomorrow.

2Y85 is a 387 today, so will this remain so or change again on Monday?

Would have been nice to have a couple more comfortable days on the well liked 365 before facing the inevitable.

 

[DaveN]

Also some of the evening peak Midland Mainline services are missing ( I presume). Currently nothing from St Pancras to Leagrave and Harlington between 1656 and 1741

 

[Failed Unit]

I met GTR planners a while ago and they are doing the same on Southern, inserting longer dwells. They said the current timetabled dwells are still largely based on slammers.

When was the last slammer on great northern? The 1980s

 

[Downthelane]

2Y85 is a 387 today, so will this remain so or change again on Monday?

Would have been nice to have a couple more comfortable days on the well liked 365 before facing the inevitable.

And noticeably rammed and full standing in many coaches by Finsbury Park.

It wasn't like that yesterday!

Where has the 365 on this service yesterday gone?

I do hope to the 07.20 Letchworth-KGX service??

 

[Failed Unit]

That's mad. I usually get the 17.58 KGX-HAT, one of the services that's not up yet... Sometimes get the 17.52 or 18.22, depending on whether I'm running early/late. The suspense is killing me..

From the drafts the semi fast services to Welwyn garden city was spaced about 15 minutes after the Cambridge.

Based on what we have seen expect them to appear around x05 / x35.

End to end journey time proposal wasn’t much difference to the Cambridge north ones. So much so that I may consider using them. 5 minutes longer WGC - London and a seat compared to the ones stopping at Hatfield and Potters bar only.