Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[TUC]

Currently there is only 1 service at 2tph on the Calder Valley (Leeds to Manchester via Bradford) and 4 hourly services (Blackpool-York, Blackburn-Manchester, Leeds to Manchester via Brighouse, Leeds to Huddersfield via Brighouse).

That misses the point though. These trains currently provide a combined much higher frequency to the Calder Valley. It's only beyond there they deviate

 

[Starmill]

What is your point? You don't seem to have a coherent point about any of the topics you've raised.

Also I'm not sure you're really talking about the Northern May 18 Timetable any more. If you wish to discuss your issues with the Calder Valley line in specific terms, maybe make a new thread.

 

[lejog]

That misses the point though. These trains currently provide a combined much higher frequency to the Calder Valley. It's only beyond there they deviate

I was responding to Bletchleyite's post, not your point whatever that may be.

 

[TUC]

What is your point? You don't seem to have a coherent point about any of the topics you've raised.

Also I'm not sure you're really talking about the Northern May 18 Timetable any more. If you wish to discuss your issues with the Calder Valley line in specific terms, maybe make a new thread.

The point, if you look further back, is one of the effects of the planned Calder Valley timetable (as it stood a few weeks ago-we don't yet know if it will continue to be the case) is to bunch most of the services via Sowerby Bridge in one half of the hour with only one in the other half hour.

 

[Chester1]

Any news on whether the 4 x 185s borrowed from TPE will return as planned in May? I am sure Northern will want to keep them until December but probably can't do anything if TPE insists on having them back to run their extended TP North service. Keeping or losing 4 fast units will probably make a big difference to what services can run considering how stretched the 158s and 170s will be.

I know its probably wishful thinking and personal bias but if there are not enough units to run Chester - Leeds could they run something like Chester-Rochdale using the new terminating platform? That would require 3 units rather than 6!

 

[lejog]

I know its probably wishful thinking and personal bias but if there are not enough units to run Chester - Leeds could they run something like Chester-Rochdale using the new terminating platform? That would require 3 units rather than 6!

???????????? The planned Chester to Leeds train is an extension of one of the existing Leeds to Manchester Calder Valley services. Unless you are proposing reducing this long established service from 2tph to 1tph, you wouldn't save any rolling stock whatsoever by running Chester to Rochdale rather than Leeds. I don't think cuts like that would go down at all well here in Yorkshire!

 

[northwichcat]

Any news on whether the 4 x 185s borrowed from TPE will return as planned in May? I am sure Northern will want to keep them until December but probably can't do anything if TPE insists on having them back to run their extended TP North service. Keeping or losing 4 fast units will probably make a big difference to what services can run considering how stretched the 158s and 170s will be.

The extra TPE services to Newcastle and between Manchester and Leeds are starting to reappear on RTT so I'm sure TPE are going to need all the 185s.

 

[northwichcat]

???????????? The planned Chester to Leeds train is an extension of one of the existing Leeds to Manchester Calder Valley services. Unless you are proposing reducing this long established service from 2tph to 1tph, you wouldn't save any rolling stock whatsoever by running Chester to Rochdale rather than Leeds. I don't think cuts like that would go down at all well here in Yorkshire!

Indeed. The most logical cutback would be the Manchester Airport extension of Calder Valley services being postponed or limited to off-peak times only.

 

[northernchris]

On RTT there's a Preston-Leeds showing, so this could hint at diesels not running to Blackpool which would save a unit. There's also a couple of Calder Valley services showing as class 1 headcodes despite being stopping services

 

[Chester1]

???????????? The planned Chester to Leeds train is an extension of one of the existing Leeds to Manchester Calder Valley services. Unless you are proposing reducing this long established service from 2tph to 1tph, you wouldn't save any rolling stock whatsoever by running Chester to Rochdale rather than Leeds. I don't think cuts like that would go down at all well here in Yorkshire!

Ah! I didn't know that, I thought it was an extra service for the Calder Valley! It should only need 2-3 extra units then. I guess the issue will be suitable stock. 150s and 153s are unsuitable to the extent that they will hurt Northern's revenue. They would need to have very cheap Northern only tickets to attract people away from Piccadilly and 175s to Victoria and 150s! 156s might do though but 158s if at all possible.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah! I didn't know that, I thought it was an extra service for the Calder Valley! It should only need 2-3 extra units then. I guess the issue will be suitable stock. 150s and 153s are unsuitable to the extent that they will hurt Northern's revenue. They would need to have very cheap Northern only tickets to attract people away from Piccadilly and 175s to Victoria and 150s! 156s might do though but 158s if at all possible.

There will be an extra Calder Valley service but it'll start in 2019 and extend to Liverpool.

 

[lejog]

On RTT there's a Preston-Leeds showing, so this could hint at diesels not running to Blackpool which would save a unit. There's also a couple of Calder Valley services showing as class 1 headcodes despite being stopping services

There's a couple of fast Leeds-Man Victoria trains (10.18 and 13.18) showing which are not extended past Victoria. The 13:18 is currently an Oxford Rd service.

Edit and a 17:36 to Victoria only. Since the planned timetable was:

The proposed departures from Leeds (Mon - Sat daytime) are:
xx.19 Leeds - Manchester Airport (fast, extension of current xx.18)
xx.42 Leeds - Chester (semi-fast, extension of current xx.51)

things aren't looking good for either of the extensions to the Airport or Chester.

 

[northwichcat]

There's a couple of fast Leeds-Man Victoria trains (10.18 and 13.18) showing which are not extended past Victoria. The 13:18 is currently an Oxford Rd service.

Edit and a 17:36 to Victoria only. Since the planned timetable was:

things aren't looking good for either of the extensions to the Airport or Chester.

The Airport extension isn't a franchise requirement until December 2019, despite Northern originally deciding to bring it forward so logically that should be the first one to be dropped if they are short of DMUs and continuing with the Oxford Rd extension is a bit pointless if TPE are running 2tph from Victoria to the Airport.

The xx:18 from Leeds are shown as going to platform 1 at Victoria but some others are showing as going to/from platforms 3 and 6 so it's possible they could be through services but the path for beyond Victoria hasn't been approved or the extension could happen mid-timetable.

I also notice it looks like there's a Victoria-Stalybridge shuttle showing - possibly instead of the Wigan-Stalybridge service?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Any news on whether the 4 x 185s borrowed from TPE will return as planned in May? I am sure Northern will want to keep them until December but probably can't do anything if TPE insists on having them back to run their extended TP North service. Keeping or losing 4 fast units will probably make a big difference to what services can run considering how stretched the 158s and 170s will be.

I know its probably wishful thinking and personal bias but if there are not enough units to run Chester - Leeds could they run something like Chester-Rochdale using the new terminating platform? That would require 3 units rather than 6!

I am under the impression that TPE have been told they have to continue to lend some 185s to Northern, and the shortage of 185s on TPE routes will be countered by reducing the number of services that run as 6 cars on the north route, which would have to happen anyway as none of the work which Network Rail needs to complete in respect of platform lengthening and suchlike will not be completed.

On RTT there's a Preston-Leeds showing, so this could hint at diesels not running to Blackpool which would save a unit. There's also a couple of Calder Valley services showing as class 1 headcodes despite being stopping services

I am told there will be very few if any through diesel services to Blackpool, with the majority of services which need to be diesel being cut back at Preston with a EMU shuttle service between Preston and Blackpool.

 

[stu99]

There is a 2N25 1933 Middlesbrough to Carlisle which starts on Sunday 24th June, seems strange it doesn't start on the timetable change.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y29243/2018/06/24/advanced

 

[AndrewE]

I am under the impression that TPE have been told they have to continue to lend some 185s to Northern, and the shortage of 185s on TPE routes will be countered by reducing the number of services that run as 6 cars on the north route, which would have to happen anyway as none of the work which Network Rail needs to complete in respect of platform lengthening and suchlike will not be completed.

I am told there will be very few if any through diesel services to Blackpool, with the majority of services which need to be diesel being cut back at Preston with a EMU shuttle service between Preston and Blackpool.

The second presumably as a consequence of the content of the first paragraph. Not going all the way to Blackpool will save a set (or 3.)
Cue disruption and delays for people who thought they had booked on a through train.

 

[northwichcat]

Cue disruption and delays for people who thought they had booked on a through train.

The majority of Northern and TPE services (including all Yorkshire to Blackpool services) were removed from the system before tickets were available to buy. While you can buy tickets from ticket offices more than 12 weeks in advance they can't tell you what the train times will be for certain if there's a timetable change date between when you buy your ticket and when you travel.

 

[Mathew S]

The majority of Northern and TPE services (including all Yorkshire to Blackpool services) were removed from the system before tickets were available to buy. While you can buy tickets from ticket offices more than 12 weeks in advance they can't tell you what the train times will be for certain if there's a timetable change date between when you buy your ticket and when you travel.

Not quite. You could buy them online through VTWC, and I'm sure others as well, which would cheerfully print you an itinerary for trains which now don't exist.

 

[AndrewE]

The majority of Northern and TPE services (including all Yorkshire to Blackpool services) were removed from the system before tickets were available to buy.

That's good news... unfortunately (like others) I am also getting prone to low expectations! er - I posted before seeing Mathew S comment!

 

[northwichcat]

Not quite. You could buy them online through VTWC, and I'm sure others as well, which would cheerfully print you an itinerary for trains which now don't exist.

I've not tried on VTWC but on VTEC if you tried to post a post-May 20th journey more than 12 weeks in advance you got a warning about train times being provisional and subject to change.

 

[Mathew S]

I've not tried on VTWC but on VTEC if you tried to post a post-May 20th journey more than 12 weeks in advance you got a warning about train times being provisional and subject to change.

VTWC were selling tickets against post-May itineraries in January, with - unless I'm mistaken - no warning. At that time, after all, they had no reason to think there would be any problems and they routinely sell that far ahead.

Less than ideal for sure. Some people are probably going to be very cross (eg. Glasgow - Bolton TPE passengers for example) I imagine.

 

[northwichcat]

VTWC were selling tickets against post-May itineraries in January, with - unless I'm mistaken - no warning. At that time, after all, they had no reason to think there would be any problems and they routinely sell that far ahead.

Less than ideal for sure. Some people are probably going to be very cross (eg. Glasgow - Bolton TPE passengers for example) I imagine.

They could be very cross regardless. If they bought a ticket 14 weeks in advance they wouldn't have been offered any cheap advance tickets and may have paid more than they needed to.

 

[Deerfold]

Could do with Northern confirming a little about what's happening - got a gig in Manchester and trying to work out if I can get a train to somewhere reasonable to get a taxi home from or if I need to book a hotel before they got too expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could be very cross regardless. If they bought a ticket 14 weeks in advance they wouldn't have been offered any cheap advance tickets and may have paid more than they needed to.

The planners could really do with clearly showing to those booking a differentiation between "there are no Advances left or none will be released for this train" and "Advances have not yet been released for this train". That would avoid this happening.

 

[northwichcat]

Could do with Northern confirming a little about what's happening - got a gig in Manchester and trying to work out if I can get a train to somewhere reasonable to get a taxi home from or if I need to book a hotel before they got too expensive.

It's unlikely the last trains will be significantly earlier than they currently are.

 

[TUC]

Indeed. The most logical cutback would be the Manchester Airport extension of Calder Valley services being postponed or limited to off-peak times only.

Why? At present most journeys from the Calder Valley to the airport involve either changing at Huddersfield (for which the service from Halifax and Brighouse is only hourly) or a transfer/walw between Manchester Victoria and Picadilly. The improvements will make a real difference.

 

[northwichcat]

Why? At present most journeys from the Calder Valley to the airport involve either changing at Huddersfield (for which the service from Halifax and Brighouse is only hourly) or a transfer/walw between Manchester Victoria and Picadilly. The improvements will make a real difference.

It's understood the North TPE changes will be happening and Northern have to plan around them, so they'll be a half-hourly service from Victoria to the Airport regardless. Taking that in to account I don't think there's any justification for Northern introducing a Victoria-Airport using diesel stock when other routes urgently need more capacity and they won't have enough diesel trains to make all the improvements. Trains between Manchester and the airport have plenty of empty seats and Northern running a 3rd hourly Victoria-Airport service will create an inconsistent service frequency.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why? At present most journeys from the Calder Valley to the airport involve either changing at Huddersfield (for which the service from Halifax and Brighouse is only hourly) or a transfer/walw between Manchester Victoria and Picadilly. The improvements will make a real difference.

The single change at Victoria onto a half hourly service should prove sufficient for now until the electrification is sorted. As jcollins states tpe north looks to be having its full timetable implemented but with a reduced number of 6 cars until the new stock starts to arrive.

 

[Deerfold]

It's unlikely the last trains will be significantly earlier than they currently are.

The last trains in the times originally uploaded were significantly earlier.

 

[northwichcat]

The last trains in the times originally uploaded were significantly earlier.

Were all the trains uploaded though? There were some obviously missing services on some routes.