Your opinions on Vladimir Putin?

[Raul_Duke]

I quite like the guy - i mean whats not to like when 14 or 15 of his former countrymen ( who have been critical of him or his government) have died in mysterious circumstances in this country. All a coincidence anyway.

BTW - i totally agree the state of Russian railways is a much bigger priority than the use of a nerve agent to try to murder people in the UK. Definitely. much bigger. Much, much bigger.

In Russia, train spots you.

 

[northwichcat]

Corbyn has suggested the use of nerve agent could have possibly been carried out by Ukraine in an attempt to frame Russia. While it's probably wise to not discount the possibly of the Russian nerve agent having got in to the hands of someone who isn't Russian until the identity of the person who carried out the attack is known, suggesting it could have been Ukraine when there's no evidence isn't a sensible thing to do. If a bomb was set off in the UK and the suspect couldn't be traced but ISIS got blamed would Corbyn be publicly saying we can't discount the possibly it was Irish Republicans who set it off? I doubt it.

 

[Monty]

Corbyn has suggested the use of nerve agent could have possibly been carried out by Ukraine in an attempt to frame Russia. While it's probably wise to not discount the possibly of the Russian nerve agent having got in to the hands of someone who isn't Russian until the identity of the person who carried out the attack is known, suggesting it could have been Ukraine when there's no evidence isn't a sensible thing to do. If a bomb was set off in the UK and the suspect couldn't be traced but ISIS got blamed would Corbyn be publicly saying we can't discount the possibly it was Irish Republicans who set it off? I doubt it.

Yeah, but he wouldn't say that since his best mate is Gerry Adams.

 

[SilentGrade]

Corbyn has suggested the use of nerve agent could have possibly been carried out by Ukraine in an attempt to frame Russia

So if Corbyn is saying that we can't claim it was Russia because of no evidence, how is suggesting Ukraine did it without evidence any better? It makes him look like a crackpot who has a aversion to criticising Russia in any way, shape or form, and is exactly why his foreign policy views worry so many. He really doesn't help his case at moments like this.

It's hard to draw any conclusion except that the Russian state had some involvement in this. If anything because of how much security would surround a highly classified Soviet nerve agent. For those who haven't already seen, Buzzfeed (not known as a journalistic mecca I accept) did an in-depth investigation into seemingly extra-judicial killings by the Russian state abroad last year, and it's a worrying read if true.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake...british-soil?utm_term=.utbyVbZ8zO#.usZZ0prDR1

FROM RUSSIA WITH BLOOD
Lavish London mansions. A hand-painted Rolls-Royce. And eight dead friends. For the British fixer Scot Young, working for Vladimir Putin's most vocal critic meant stunning perks – but also constant danger. His gruesome death is one of 14 that US spy agencies have linked to Russia – but the UK police shut down every last case. A bombshell cache of documents today reveals the full story of a ring of death on British soil that the government has ignored.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Corbyn has suggested the use of nerve agent could have possibly been carried out by Ukraine in an attempt to frame Russia. .

Can't find this anywhere. Can you name your source, please?

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Buzzfeed (not known as a journalistic mecca I accept) did an in-depth investigation into seemingly extra-judicial killings by the Russian state abroad last year, and it's a worrying read if true.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake...british-soil?utm_term=.utbyVbZ8zO#.usZZ0prDR1

On the contrary, Buzzfeed is getting quite a reputation for high-quality investigative journalism, even getting a Pulitzer Prize nomination last year.

It's a shame that the quality journalism is diluted by the clickbait nonsense they still peddle.

 

[Domh245]

It's a shame that the quality journalism is diluted by the clickbait nonsense they still peddle.

On the flip side, it is often suggested that the clickbait and other such content goes a long way towards funding their investigative journalism, so it's something of a necessary evil.

 

[northwichcat]

Can't find this anywhere. Can you name your source, please?

It was mentioned on ITV Evening News on 14th March. If you trust The New Statemen Corbyn gave a statement and then said Seumas Milne would be giving a post-statement briefing, where Milne brought up the possibly of Ukraine.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

It was mentioned on ITV Evening News on 14th March. If you trust The New Statemen Corbyn gave a statement and then said Seumas Milne would be giving a post-statement briefing, where Milne brought up the possibly of Ukraine.

Ah, Seamus Milne. probably more likely to be him than Jeremy Corbyn!

 

[gingerheid]

The suggestions that the didn't do it and conspiracy theory alternative possibilities are a bit laughable. He said he was going to do it a few years ago and he has. And in fact I have only a minimal problem with them murdering a double agent traitor. The former spy decided to play that game, and really it's not one that's liable to be good for your long term health. We want to encourage people to do that (for our side) so our role in the game was to keep him alive, and we failed in that aspect.

I do have a problem with the way in which they did it; putting his daughter and the wider public at risk was totally unacceptable.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

All this talk of treaties, conventions, protocols and so on is completely missing the point. Putin will only abide by such things as long as it suits him. When it doesn't he simply ignores them. Anyone remember his annexation of Crimea? Or his tacit approval of Russian support through dodgy channels for the rebels in Eastern Ukraine which led to the shooting down of a civilian airliner? Putin doesn't give a flying fig about such things. Like all dictators his only real concern is holding on to power for as long as possible. Even if it means relying on the support of organised criminals who would have few qualms about doing things much worse than targeting individuals with a highly toxic nerve agent.

 

[jon0844]

Meanwhile, I bet Putin’s opinion poll ratings are rising.

Edit: do they even have those in Russia?

They have the ratings but not sure if they do the polls!

I wouldn't even be surprised if the polls are made to report lower figures (not too low) at times to try and suggest some level of democracy in action.

 

[northwichcat]

They have the ratings but not sure if they do the polls!

I wouldn't even be surprised if the polls are made to report lower figures (not too low) at times to try and suggest some level of democracy in action.

Interesting to see they have 'favourite for president' polls and 'least favourite for president' polls. The former only has a difference of 0.3% between the two least popular candidates but the latter has a difference of 50%. It looks like those who favour Putin have a strong dislike for Sobchak but those who don't favour Putin are spoiled for choice.

 

[Busaholic]

Does anyone have any idea why people in Salisbury a fortnight ago are now being asked to think whether they saw that BMW during a period of several hours leading it to appearing in the Sainsbury's car park from which it was later removed? There must be hundreds of CCTV images: you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to believe there is so much we're not being told. One comment in a paper a day or two after the attack too which has never been explained. Someone whose first name was given claimed to be a regular driver for the ex-spy and regularly ran him to Heathrow Airport for unspecified 'meetings'. I don't think this is nearly as 'open and shut' as with Litvienko. Also, why was the daughter of an ex-spy expelled from Russia in disgrace allowed to re-establish herself there? Most bizarre.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Does anyone have any idea why people in Salisbury a fortnight ago are now being asked to think whether they saw that BMW during a period of several hours leading it to appearing in the Sainsbury's car park from which it was later removed? There must be hundreds of CCTV images: you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to believe there is so much we're not being told. One comment in a paper a day or two after the attack too which has never been explained. Someone whose first name was given claimed to be a regular driver for the ex-spy and regularly ran him to Heathrow Airport for unspecified 'meetings'. I don't think this is nearly as 'open and shut' as with Litvienko. Also, why was the daughter of an ex-spy expelled from Russia in disgrace allowed to re-establish herself there? Most bizarre.

Indeed - something doesn't seem quite right about the whole thing.

Aside from the above, while it is certainly true that a lot of Russian dissidents and defectors have died in often unexplained and suspicious circumstances, I cannot think of any other case where the "targeting" ( for want of a better word ) has hit anyone other than the intended person. It is certainly uncharacteristic that an attempt against someone risks a large number of other, un-involved, people.

Is it not also odd that it takes them eight years to get round to someone who is living openly in his real name?

 

[Master29]

Does anyone have any idea why people in Salisbury a fortnight ago are now being asked to think whether they saw that BMW during a period of several hours leading it to appearing in the Sainsbury's car park from which it was later removed? There must be hundreds of CCTV images: you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to believe there is so much we're not being told. One comment in a paper a day or two after the attack too which has never been explained. Someone whose first name was given claimed to be a regular driver for the ex-spy and regularly ran him to Heathrow Airport for unspecified 'meetings'. I don't think this is nearly as 'open and shut' as with Litvienko. Also, why was the daughter of an ex-spy expelled from Russia in disgrace allowed to re-establish herself there? Most bizarre.

Indeed and it`s good to see we have forum members that question this whole affair rather than believe half the nonsense from the likes of Sky and the BBC. It may or may not have been Putin but quite frankly it`s hard to believe either side since lying is first nature on both sides. The gnashing and wailing of some people over the possibility UK citizens may or may not have been hurt by a foreign power pails into insignificance when the likes of the Tories treat our own people with disgusting contempt makes things sound just a tad hypocritical don`t you think.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The man is clearly insane. Sham elections, mysterious deaths, poisonings of defectors, that female journalist who had her throat slashed at her desk... all very suspicious...

Erm, I mean, he's a strong leader who is doing right by his people and his country. If only we had such a dignified and virile head of government. All hail Vladimir!

In all seriousness, the Salisbury thing does seem to have been a Russian operation. The victim is a defector, presumably with potentially damaging information and it isn't the first time that a Russian defector has come to mysterious harm in the UK... BUT (oh come on, you knew there'd be one!):

Do you not think that if Putin wanted the guy dead, he would be dead. He doesn't seem like someone who does half-measures. Portraying Putin as the "bogeyman" is something that would be advantageous to Western governments, and I'm not sure Putin has much to gain from getting rid of Skripal. Any damaging information he may have would be easily quashed by the Russian state and media (which is overwhelmingly pro-Putin) and I wouldn't entirely rule out some of the other theories:- in part, precisely because the "Putin did it" narrative is so convenient.

A healthy dose of scepticism is called for, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Iskra]

The man is clearly insane. Sham elections, mysterious deaths, poisonings of defectors, that female journalist who had her throat slashed at her desk... all very suspicious...

Erm, I mean, he's a strong leader who is doing right by his people and his country. If only we had such a dignified and virile head of government. All hail Vladimir!

In all seriousness, the Salisbury thing does seem to have been a Russian operation. The victim is a defector, presumably with potentially damaging information and it isn't the first time that a Russian defector has come to mysterious harm in the UK... BUT (oh come on, you knew there'd be one!):

Do you not think that if Putin wanted the guy dead, he would be dead. He doesn't seem like someone who does half-measures. Portraying Putin as the "bogeyman" is something that would be advantageous to Western governments, and I'm not sure Putin has much to gain from getting rid of Skripal. Any damaging information he may have would be easily quashed by the Russian state and media (which is overwhelmingly pro-Putin) and I wouldn't entirely rule out some of the other theories:- in part, precisely because the "Putin did it" narrative is so convenient.

A healthy dose of scepticism is called for, that's all I'm saying.

We've had enough of those, thank you...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We've had enough of those, thank you...

If you're not just a little bit suspicious about how convenient the whole thing is (and how the poisoning clearly wasn't well-executed (no pun intended)) then I'm not sure you have. The official theory is the most likely explanation, but not the only possible one.

The powers that be have much to gain from Putin being portrayed as the bad guy (and he IS a bad guy, don't get me wrong): it allows a fearful population to accept and welcome an aggressive stance towards Russia. It quells any threat of a leftist-populist or pacifist movement gaining ground... The proximity to Porton Down (which has a long history of weird chemical-related shenanigans) adds to the whole thing not completely passing the smell-test for me.

Of course if it was indeed a Russian government plot, that fact will have been known to Putin:- so I'm not prepared to die on this conspiracy-theory hill... but so far the case is not conclusive.

Governments of all colours lie. A lot.

 

[furnessvale]

The man is clearly insane. Sham elections, mysterious deaths, poisonings of defectors, that female journalist who had her throat slashed at her desk... all very suspicious...

Erm, I mean, he's a strong leader who is doing right by his people and his country. If only we had such a dignified and virile head of government. All hail Vladimir!

In all seriousness, the Salisbury thing does seem to have been a Russian operation. The victim is a defector, presumably with potentially damaging information and it isn't the first time that a Russian defector has come to mysterious harm in the UK... BUT (oh come on, you knew there'd be one!):

Do you not think that if Putin wanted the guy dead, he would be dead. He doesn't seem like someone who does half-measures. Portraying Putin as the "bogeyman" is something that would be advantageous to Western governments, and I'm not sure Putin has much to gain from getting rid of Skripal. Any damaging information he may have would be easily quashed by the Russian state and media (which is overwhelmingly pro-Putin) and I wouldn't entirely rule out some of the other theories:- in part, precisely because the "Putin did it" narrative is so convenient.

A healthy dose of scepticism is called for, that's all I'm saying.

The fact is, that a warning has been sent to Russian dissidents, with no doubt who did it, as opposed to the strangling of another Russian a few days later where Putin could deny any knowledge, and the timing certainly helped Putin in the election, that's all I'm saying.

 

[DarloRich]

Portraying Putin as the "bogeyman" is something that would be advantageous to Western governments

why would that be advantageous? This line is trotted out time and again. What real advantage would there be to upsetting a massive country with lots of natural resources, vast armed forces and loads of money? Funny how none of you can express what evidence would satisfy your wibbling. What evidence do you need to accept it was Russia behind this attack? People in our country were attacked by a nerve agent but that doesn't seem to matter to the cult.

Do you not think that if Putin wanted the guy dead, he would be dead.

It took a fair while for Litvinenko to die. These poor people may well yet succumb. Do you not think that Putin wanted to send a message? Do you not think that using an exotic, slow, painful means of killing someone ensures maximum publicity and lands a blow on every critical dissident at exactly the time Russia went to the polls? no more likely Mossad or the CIA did it.

It quells any threat of a leftist-populist or pacifist movement gaining ground... The proximity to Porton Down (which has a long history of weird chemical-related shenanigans) adds to the whole thing not completely passing the smell-test for me.

ah - the full on bonkers Corbyn cult response. It is a false flag carried out by someone evil/Tory designed to discredit the great man who has been on the right side of history in every international matter since 1245. (except of course, when he wasn't) Funny how none of you are asking why Corbyn wont come out and criticise Russia directly.Why is that? Anyone would think he was paid by RT to be a political commentator! It is Russia. They did it. Even John McDonald has managed to grasp that. His usual ham fisted response to anything simply makes May look good!

PS - Perhaps Corbyn is on a journey or trying to start a dialogue. Perhaps he could invite the would be murders to parliament and praise them.

 

[Iskra]

If you're not just a little bit suspicious about how convenient the whole thing is (and how the poisoning clearly wasn't well-executed (no pun intended)) then I'm not sure you have. The official theory is the most likely explanation, but not the only possible one.

The powers that be have much to gain from Putin being portrayed as the bad guy (and he IS a bad guy, don't get me wrong): it allows a fearful population to accept and welcome an aggressive stance towards Russia. It quells any threat of a leftist-populist or pacifist movement gaining ground... The proximity to Porton Down (which has a long history of weird chemical-related shenanigans) adds to the whole thing not completely passing the smell-test for me.

Of course if it was indeed a Russian government plot, that fact will have been known to Putin:- so I'm not prepared to die on this conspiracy-theory hill... but so far the case is not conclusive.

Governments of all colours lie. A lot.

I was just making a pun, based on the bit I highlighted in your quote, nothing more. It's too early to draw any conclusions on this IMO.

It would be nice however, if you could manage to respond to people without having a dig every time.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

@DarloRich, the evidence that would convince me is the same sort of evidence that would convince me in a more conventional criminal case: something more than circumstantial. Currently all that has been made public is just circumstantial. It is highly likely that the poisoning was indeed orchestrated by the Russian government or their proxies, but it isn't conclusive. That is all I'm saying. Though if we assume theoretically that it was a false-flag then it has been successful, and Mr. Corbyn has foolishly played right into it.

@Iskra I didn't think I was "having a dig"... certainly no more than I felt you were. I think we both know that the other is on the "other side" politically so perhaps my language came across as more confrontational or defensive than intended. For that, I apologise.

Again, I'm not picking a side on this until I see conclusive evidence. If that makes me seem like I should be wearing a tinfoil hat to some people, so be it.

 

[DarloRich]

@DarloRich, the evidence that would convince me is the same sort of evidence that would convince me in a more conventional criminal case: something more than circumstantial. Currently all that has been made public is just circumstantial. It is highly likely that the poisoning was indeed orchestrated by the Russian government or their proxies, but it isn't conclusive. That is all I'm saying. Though if we assume theoretically that it was a false-flag then it has been successful, and Mr. Corbyn has foolishly played right into it.

So the situation as i see it is this:

You have found a body with a knife stuck in its back. The knife has my finger prints on it but you have no witnesses and no DNA. I have an alibi that says i was 12000 miles away at the time and I wont let you interview me. It is conceivable that someone else could have killed the victim and somehow transferred my finger prints to the knife in an attempt to frame me. Conceivable, but highly unlikely. Would you arrest or would you just walk away shrugging your shoulders?

conclusive evidence.

You aren't going to see conclusive evidence especially if this is the work of a professional arm of the Russian intelligence services. That's kind of the point! That means, like Mr Corbyn, you will use that as an excuse to do nothing. All the while 3 people have been critically injured in an unprovoked attack on British soil using a never agent. That disgusts me. It should you.

EDIT - if it WASNT the Russians who was it? Mossad? CIA? Tories? Lizard people?

 

[Iskra]

@DarloRich, the evidence that would convince me is the same sort of evidence that would convince me in a more conventional criminal case: something more than circumstantial. Currently all that has been made public is just circumstantial. It is highly likely that the poisoning was indeed orchestrated by the Russian government or their proxies, but it isn't conclusive. That is all I'm saying. Though if we assume theoretically that it was a false-flag then it has been successful, and Mr. Corbyn has foolishly played right into it.

@Iskra I didn't think I was "having a dig"... certainly no more than I felt you were. I think we both know that the other is on the "other side" politically so perhaps my language came across as more confrontational or defensive than intended. For that, I apologise.

Again, I'm not picking a side on this until I see conclusive evidence. If that makes me seem like I should be wearing a tinfoil hat to some people, so be it.

No worries, and I'm sorry if you thought I was digging too.

I'm not on 'a side' when it comes to politics. I'm probably pretty central, but not afraid to take issue with either end of the spectrum if they're being ridiculous. I vote for whoever is going to do the best for me, from whichever party providing they have a chance of getting in and aren't lunatics.

 

[furnessvale]

@DarloRich, the evidence that would convince me is the same sort of evidence that would convince me in a more conventional criminal case: something more than circumstantial. Currently all that has been made public is just circumstantial. It is highly likely that the poisoning was indeed orchestrated by the Russian government or their proxies, but it isn't conclusive. That is all I'm saying. Though if we assume theoretically that it was a false-flag then it has been successful, and Mr. Corbyn has foolishly played right into it.

@Iskra I didn't think I was "having a dig"... certainly no more than I felt you were. I think we both know that the other is on the "other side" politically so perhaps my language came across as more confrontational or defensive than intended. For that, I apologise.

Again, I'm not picking a side on this until I see conclusive evidence. If that makes me seem like I should be wearing a tinfoil hat to some people, so be it.

Circumstantial evidence can be sufficient in a criminal case. The level of CONCLUSIVE proof being demanded by some in this thread is often absent in criminal cases and juries have to find a person guilty beyond any REASONABLE doubt, not beyond any doubt whatsoever.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm finding the "false flag" conspiracy theories unsettling and unpleasant. And a very unwelcome import from the US.

It is correct that governments of all colours lie. However, the British state's "black ops" modus operandi is usually through collusion and plausible deniability, and generally only in times of war. It generally does not directly assassinate people for political gain. I cannot think of a genuine high profile false flag operation of this type perpetrated by the British state in modern history.

 

[northwichcat]

The fact is, that a warning has been sent to Russian dissidents, with no doubt who did it, as opposed to the strangling of another Russian a few days later where Putin could deny any knowledge, and the timing certainly helped Putin in the election, that's all I'm saying.

Anyone remember the last season of the TV series 24 where President Taylor asked for help from the former corrupt President Logan in getting the Russians to the table, where Logan said he'll do it but Taylor wasn't to ask for details on how it would be done. A similar situation may have occurred in real life Russia - Putin wanted something, someone offered a way of doing it but kept Putin out of the loop to keep him in the clear. Putin is known to be someone who says something along the lines of "Russians will have a good life under me but they must never question how I do my job."

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So the situation as i see it is this:

You have found a body with a knife stuck in its back. The knife has my finger prints on it but you have no witnesses and no DNA. I have an alibi that says i was 12000 miles away at the time and I wont let you interview me. It is conceivable that someone else could have killed the victim and somehow transferred my finger prints to the knife in an attempt to frame me. Conceivable, but highly unlikely. Would you arrest or would you just walk away shrugging your shoulders?



You aren't going to see conclusive evidence especially if this is the work of a professional arm of the Russian intelligence services. That's kind of the point! That means, like Mr Corbyn, you will use that as an excuse to do nothing. All the while 3 people have been critically injured in an unprovoked attack on British soil using a never agent. That disgusts me. It should you.

EDIT - if it WASNT the Russians who was it? Mossad? CIA? Tories? Lizard people?

The first example you give, with fingerprints, is not the same as the situation we have in this case- because there aren't any fingerprints in this case. There is very strong circumstantial evidence, but it is just circumstantial.

If it wasn't the Russians, who was it? Possibly our own intelligence services and possibly the CIA. The most likely explanation is indeed that it was Russia, but that isn't the only possible explanation at this point.

The truth is that we, as mere ordinary citizens, will probably never get the full story. But throwing about all this "lizard people" nonsense isn't going to bring us any closer to it. It's just childish.

There's already been cases in the US of people being attacked simply for having Russian-sounding names. I do hope we don't go down that route here. But alas, any hint of scepticism about the official line and it makes me a Putin apologist.

 

[DarloRich]

The first example you give, with fingerprints, is not the same as the situation we have in this case- because there aren't any fingerprints in this case. There is very strong circumstantial evidence, but it is just circumstantial.

Ok - a partial print - based on the chemical structure of the agent used.

Possibly our own intelligence services and possibly the CIA. The most likely explanation is indeed that it was Russia, but that isn't the only possible explanation at this point.

Agreed that is, just about, possible ( especially if you lean towards a conspiracy in everything) but it isnt plausible.

The truth is that we, as mere ordinary citizens, will probably never get the full story. But throwing about all this "lizard people" nonsense isn't going to bring us any closer to it. It's just childish.

Why? Many people, many of whom are ardent Corbyn fans, see this as a vast conspiracy. Jewish liazard people are always a favorite of crack pot conspiracy nuts. Perhaps that isnt you but you are trotting out many of the lines the clown army are using to try and support their hero who messed up his response to yet another international issue. Anyone would think he was anti western in his approach. Mind you , he wouldn't do anything about chemical weapons being used in Syria so at least he is consistent.