Snow Service Changes 17/03 onwards

[gavin]

Further heavy snow and Ice is forecast this weekend for parts of England

Some early changes are in place for southern

• Services on the Uckfield line will be formed of additional coaches
• Services on the Redhill to Tonbridge route will be formed of additional coaches
• Coastal Routes will be affected as the older trains on those routes do not function well in sub-zero weather conditions. An amended timetable will be in place to allow the running of more resilient trains that are less affected by icy conditions

Gatwick Express & Thameslink have no changes at present but this could well change once the snow arrives

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx

Great Northern are planning to run a normal service but with up to 10cm of snow forecast on parts of the route things may change over the weekend

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm actually genuinely surprised a 313 doesn't work better than a modern electronic unit in the snow.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm actually genuinely surprised a 313 doesn't work better than a modern electronic unit in the snow.

Back when they were looked after they probably did. . Great northern has the same statement in snow about their 313. But I suspect they are not having the same TLC with their short lifespan.

 

[ungreat]

313s, when maintained, are very reliable.

 

[Deepgreen]

The additional coaches on the Tonbridge route - how will this work with platforms en route being four car lengths only? Will doors be isolated? It remains to be seen whether 377s will be more "resilient" than 313s, but my experience of 377s is that they sit down at the first sign of snow and ice!

Southern are also claiming that additional coaches will provide "additional power and grip" - a nonsense, as the additional coaches add more weight and the increase in power is simply matched by this additional weight. The same goes for "grip" - extra power and weight of train do not add to the tractive effort available. The only possible benefit is to put more collector shoes onto the juice rail which may allow contact to be achieved where a shorter formation may fail.

"During the Winter season, a train normally runs slower than normal as it approaches a station or set of points as stopping distances are longer" - another quote from Southern; utter rubbish! Do they mean autumn, regarding leaf fall? Since when have trains generally been operated more slowly in winter? The messages are clearly intended to lull the public into thinking that all the disruption is already accounted for in operating procedures.

GWR are also saying this:

"Severe weather between Westbury and Chippenham today means no trains will run between Westbury and Chippenham. This is expected to continue until the end of service.

Replacement buses have been sourced to run between Westbury and Chippenham."

What severe weather?! There has been a brief spell of snow which has cleared away - but service abandoned for the rest of the day?! Just when we thought it couldn't get any more pathetic, it does.

 

[Crossover]

Actually, I think more carriages can help as with multiple units the power is distributed and some wheels may get better grip. Wouldn’t work with a loco hauled, however

 

[bramling]

I'm actually genuinely surprised a 313 doesn't work better than a modern electronic unit in the snow.

It could be the case that whilst the 313 may work on the day, there's a greater chance of sustaining damage which then puts the train out of service for a number of days subsequently.

 

[island]

It also means more conductor shoes for redundancy in the event that contact is lost owing to ice.

 

[theageofthetra]

Bridge at East Croydon closed again. Some seem to be getting on to it leading to ridiculous scenes at the bottom of the stairs. Who signed off this design? Are they still in a job?

 

[Carlisle]

I'm actually genuinely surprised a 313 doesn't work better than a modern electronic unit in the snow.

It may have something to do with better adhesion levels from newer AC traction, and the larger DC motors being more susceptible to snow ingress affecting their operations

 

[Deepgreen]

It also means more conductor shoes for redundancy in the event that contact is lost owing to ice.

Quite - hence my point in post 5 :

The only possible benefit is to put more collector shoes onto the juice rail which may allow contact to be achieved where a shorter formation may fail.

It may have something to do with better adhesion levels from newer AC traction, and the larger DC motors being more susceptible to snow ingress affecting their operations

The older DC workhorses such as SUBs and EPBs were very resilient - SUB drivers said they would bulldoze through anything!

 

[Deepgreen]

Bridge at East Croydon closed again. Some seem to be getting on to it leading to ridiculous scenes at the bottom of the stairs. Who signed off this design? Are they still in a job?

The East Croydon "improvements" project has been a scandal - the bridge is a farce and the whole programme seems to have been totally un-managed - why, for example, were tactile edging tiles not laid when the new paving slabs were laid on platforms 3-6?!

 

[hozza94]

Bridge at East Croydon closed again. Some seem to be getting on to it leading to ridiculous scenes at the bottom of the stairs. Who signed off this design? Are they still in a job?

The company I work for (international civil engineering firm based in Croydon) did the design of the bridge, but I guess the design is influenced by client's decision making. And yes, a lot of the structural designers are still working for the same team.

The problem of the bridge is that it was required to be wheeled in on a weekend so it has to be kept quite light, not sure why do they have to shut it though since everyone at the office had to detour in the last "Beast from the East".

 

[philthetube]

Southern are also claiming that additional coaches will provide "additional power and grip" - a nonsense, as the additional coaches add more weight and the increase in power is simply matched by this additional weight. The same goes for "grip" - extra power and weight of train do not add to the tractive effort available. The only possible benefit is to put more collector shoes onto the juice rail which may allow contact to be achieved where a shorter formation may fail.

extra coaches make a big difference to both power and grip.

Power because the shoes at the front push off the snow and can help to melt ice and the onex at the back then have a better chance of getting power, and grip for similar reasons with the wheels on the running rails.

 

[JonathanH]

There are only really three problems with the bridge at East Croydon as a passenger.

1) The surface becomes slippery in bad weather
2) The steps are somewhat steep
3) It is open to the elements rather than being enclosed

Rain and, even worse, ice makes it unusable.

Structurally I'm sure it is great and clearly it is also built with future expansion of the station in mind. Much better for connection to West Croydon as well.

 

[londonboi]

The additional coaches on the Tonbridge route - how will this work with platforms en route being four car lengths only? Will doors be isolated? It remains to be seen whether 377s will be more "resilient" than 313s, but my experience of 377s is that they sit down at the first sign of snow and ice!

Southern are also claiming that additional coaches will provide "additional power and grip" - a nonsense, as the additional coaches add more weight and the increase in power is simply matched by this additional weight. The same goes for "grip" - extra power and weight of train do not add to the tractive effort available. The only possible benefit is to put more collector shoes onto the juice rail which may allow contact to be achieved where a shorter formation may fail.

"During the Winter season, a train normally runs slower than normal as it approaches a station or set of points as stopping distances are longer" - another quote from Southern; utter rubbish! Do they mean autumn, regarding leaf fall? Since when have trains generally been operated more slowly in winter? The messages are clearly intended to lull the public into thinking that all the disruption is already accounted for in operating procedures.

GWR are also saying this:

"Severe weather between Westbury and Chippenham today means no trains will run between Westbury and Chippenham. This is expected to continue until the end of service.

Replacement buses have been sourced to run between Westbury and Chippenham."

What severe weather?! There has been a brief spell of snow which has cleared away - but service abandoned for the rest of the day?! Just when we thought it couldn't get any more pathetic, it does.

What southern have said is not “garbage”.

As pointed out already. The shoes at the front clear snow/ice etc (I am not sure if 377 units are fitted with sleet brushes) if they are these get lowered as well to clear the way. The other collector shoes also help push the train through.
For Your other part of the post about extra weight being “garbage” as well physically it is not. The heavier the better as the more weight on the axels the better the grip sonagain helps trains run in adverse weather

 

[jamesst]

What southern have said is not “garbage”.

As pointed out already. The shoes at the front clear snow/ice etc (I am not sure if 377 units are fitted with sleet brushes) if they are these get lowered as well to clear the way. The other collector shoes also help push the train through.
For Your other part of the post about extra weight being “garbage” as well physically it is not. The heavier the better as the more weight on the axels the better the grip sonagain helps trains run in adverse weather

Spot on, when I'm driving in adverse weather, leaf fall etc the more coaches the better as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Surely the more carriages give you more weight, but they also give you more axles. You end up with exactly the same amount of weight per axle.

What they do give you is more driven wheels and pick up points, which means that you have a greater chance if one part of a train is on ice another isnt and therefore the train can still pick up power and have traction.

Not sure why the Uckfield trains need to be lengthened though. I know they are not the most reliable units at the moment but wht stops them in the snow?

 

[M60lad]

Cross Country suffering with the weather this morning with the following reported problems according to National Rail:

• A points failure at Eastleigh is resulting in trains unable to leave the depot
• Birmingham area - a points failure at Tyseley means that trains are currently unable to leave the depot
• Road conditions affecting train crew getting to work

 

[DanTrain]

RTT suggests a points failure on the Hope Valley this morning, with the 1st eastbound stopper cancelled. There’s 6 inches lying here in Sheffield, all buses cancelled, so I’m expecting further disruption, with little sign of melting either.

 

[JonathanH]

• Road conditions affecting train crew getting to work

What restrictions are placed on where train crew can live relative to their signing on point?

 

[theironroad]

What restrictions are placed on where train crew can live relative to their signing on point?

Only based on how long it would normally take to get to the depot based on normal circumstances.

The reason so many ads for safety critical rail staff stipulate a time to depot requirement is to comply with fatigue guidelines. A 3 hour drive to work before a 12 hour shift then 3 hours home wouldn't really be a great start to the day.

 

[STANDISH]

Northern says no services Hazel Grove /Buxton. No services News Mills /Sheffield. Northern ,TPE and East Midlands.

 

[marcouk2]

Tree down at Horton in Ribblesdale, s&c blocked currently.

Sat on train at Kirkby Stephen atm.

 

[gavin]

The following train operators have issued travel advice for today

• Arriva Trains Wales
• CrossCountry
• East Midlands Trains
• Great Northern
• Great Western Railway
• Heathrow Connect
• Heathrow Express
• Hull Trains
• Island Line
• Northern
• South Western Railway
• Southern, Thameslink and Gatwick Express
• TransPennine Express

Click names for full details

 

[Wirewiper]

GWR trains are running, albeit with delays and cancellations - but the rail replacement buses in connection with the Swindon blockade are currently suspended (Sunday 18th).

 

[jon0844]

Only faults affecting GN 313s from WGC yesterday in the snow were down to driver issues, as in no driver or relief. They seemed to perform fine, but obviously not on third rail for the majority of their run (and that part being mostly sheltered).

 

[CHAPS2034]

Northern says no services Hazel Grove /Buxton. No services News Mills /Sheffield. Northern ,TPE and East Midlands.

Reportedly the problem on the Hope Valley line is a snowdrift at Chinley according to EMT

A snow drift at Chinley is disrupting trains between Liverpool Lime Street and Sheffield. Trains are now able to run from Sheffield towards Stockport. The line from Stockport towards Sheffield is expected to reopen at approximately 13:00.

Replacement road transport is currently unavailable due to road conditions over the Pennines.

When I was a lad many many moons ago, it was always said that when it snowed hard in Buxton, the only way in and out was by train. Maybe this was a myth but certainly doesn't seem to be the case nowadays.

CW

 

[Bletchleyite]

GWR trains are running, albeit with delays and cancellations - but the rail replacement buses in connection with the Swindon blockade are currently suspended (Sunday 18th).

I'm in Bath and there's next to no issues on the roads. Does it get far worse a little bit east?

 

[Wirewiper]

Reposted in Buses & Coaches - How are your local buses doing in the snow?