Removing a passenger from a bus with 'reasonable force'?

[175mph]

If you were a bus driver and a passenger is persistently causing discomfort to other passengers and you gave them several warnings and now you decide they've had their chance, off the bus, and they refuse to leave, would you force off the bus?

By this, I mean confronting them and prying them out of their seat if they won't move?

Would this be classed as 'reasonable force' by prying them out of their seat?

I personally wouldn't try it with any passenger.

 

[yorkie]

That sounds very unwise, and is (at the very least) unlikely to comply with the company's policies.

 

[175mph]

That sounds very unwise, and is (at the very least) unlikely to comply with the company's policies.

The same driver who said he'd ram cars out the way said to me he would and has done that before as it's what he would consider 'reasonable force'.

 

[yorkie]

Did the incident today actually happen, or is he just saying he would do something like this?

If it did happen, I would report him.

 

[175mph]

Did the incident today actually happen, or is he just saying he would do something like this?

If it did happen, I would report him.

It's just what he said he's done before and would do again, NOT what happened today.

 

[CatfordCat]

Hmm.

The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990 (the 2002 amendments are around disability access) are relevant bit of law here. (copy here)

Yes, the passenger in question would be in breach of regulation 6 (1) b if they "put at risk or unreasonably impede or cause discomfort to any person travelling on or entering or leaving the vehicle, or a driver, inspector, conductor or employee of the operator when doing his work on the vehicle"

And under regulation 8 (2), "Any passenger on a vehicle who contravenes any provision of these Regulations may be removed from the vehicle by the driver, inspector or conductor of the vehicle or, on the request of the driver, inspector or conductor, by a police constable."

This is a little bit vague in terms of just what a driver, inspector or conductor can do to remove said passenger, they do not specifically authorise or prohibit physical force, and I can't remember (or find on a quick web search) any case law that might clarify this.

However, even 20 / 30 years ago, the general drill was you ask someone to get off, ask them a bit more firmly, and if they don't want to play, call the police and let them sort it out (although there is anecdotal evidence out there of conductors using ticket machines and, in extreme circumstances fire extinguishers, as defensive weapons)

I can't see why any bus driver would want to get in to a position where they would risk at least being accused of assault and might risk being thumped - or risk other passengers getting caught in a fight. Many bus companies offer advice on dealing with disruptive passengers, and generally speaking the advice is to try and avoid / minimise physical confrontations - I can't see then encouraging drivers to start it and I'm not aware of any including unarmed combat in their CPC training...

Some operators also tend to consider whether a driver has contributed to escalating a situation following an on-bus incident in the same way that contributory negligence can be taken in to account in an accident at work.

 

[BestWestern]

No, you would be done for assault and out of a job.

 

[CarlSilva]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-43069608
National express suspended a driver for it.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's just what he said he's done before and would do again, NOT what happened today.

I'd suggest you find more sensible/mature drivers to talk to in future......

 

[Kahuna47]

From personal experience I've never got out my cab to deal with a disruptive passenger. I usually pull over, turn the engine off, leave the doors open and tell them to get off.

Every time they've not left theres always been a passenger or passer by who's 'assisted' in removing them from the vehicle

Other drivers have other ways of doing it. One was telling me he pulls up at a bus stop with the pole right in the middle of the doors (so the culprit can't see it), opens the doors, then he 'shakes' the cab door to give the illusion he's getting out. Scroat makes a run for it, only to run nose first into the pole!

Best thing was the company didn't do anything because it looked like he assaulted himself!

K

 

[Bletchleyite]

From personal experience I've never got out my cab to deal with a disruptive passenger. I usually pull over, turn the engine off, leave the doors open and tell them to get off.

The classic "newspaper method" - doors open, engine off, newspaper out, wait (not very long, normally) for the situation to resolve itself.

 

[Kahuna47]

The classic "newspaper method" - doors open, engine off, newspaper out, wait (not very long, normally) for the situation to resolve itself.

What can I say, the old ones are the best!

K

 

[PeterC]

So in summary
1. The driver would have a possible defense in law
2. Would probably be liable to disciplinary action by his employer
3. In practical terms would be unwise to try

If the driver took no action or resorted to the "newspaper method" while the disruptive persion was abusing other passengers, possibly regarding their race or sexuality, would they then be able to claim a failing in duty of care against the operator?

 

[Ianno87]

I had an incident where a driver asked a lady to leave the bus who was giving vile racist abuse to another passenger.

He did leave the cab to tell her very clearly "I will not tolerate racist abuse on my bus", then got back in his cab to radio control for police assistance and then waited.... (we were blocking John Dalton Street in Manchester at the time)

After a couple of minutes the lady then get off. Muttering about how she was 'just speaking her mind' (tells you all you need to know)

 

[507021]

Up to now I have never had to ask any disruptive passengers to get off the bus, but in the event I have to in the future, then I would pull over and refuse to continue until the passenger leaves the vehicle. If they still refuse, then I would call the police.

 

[Busaholic]

Up to now I have never had to ask any disruptive passengers to get off the bus, but in the event I have to in the future, then I would pull over and refuse to continue until the passenger leaves the vehicle. If they still refuse, then I would call the police.

Is the right answer

 

[Mwanesh]

I remember one day driving a Megabus bound for Aberdeen one passenger started shouting and swearing by Brent Cross.He was bound for Glasgow.By the time we got to Hemel Hempstead i had enough so i went off at Junction 9 and went up the A5 towards Dunstable i pulled into services around there and said mister off you go .He protested that he was not going to do it again and how was he getting home if i left him in the middle of nowhere.The coach phone rang and they said i should pull into Toddington to get him off they had received many complaints .He heard the whole chat and started crying i said thats my boss see you.The other passengers applauded when i drove off.How he got home God knows I did see the guy a few months later and he did apologise .

 

[matt_world2004]

No, stay in cab and call police.

 

[Mwanesh]

No, stay in cab and call police.

On service buses yes but on coaches you are exposed.A few years ago one of our Oxford Tube drivers was attacked by a passenger on the M40 while driving despite trying hard the coach eventually overturned.So if anyone starts when i am on the motorway i always find other drivers helpful especially truck drivers

 

[matt_world2004]

On service buses yes but on coaches you are exposed.A few years ago one of our Oxford Tube drivers was attacked by a passenger on the M40 while driving despite trying hard the coach eventually overturned.So if anyone starts when i am on the motorway i always find other drivers helpful especially truck drivers

Yes of course, if you are in an are exposed to passengers you should be allowed to do whatever it takes to defend yourself and drive the vehicle safely

 

[philthetube]

There is a huge difference between defending yourself and getting involved, as against calling police.

 

[randyrippley]

OK, so here's something that happened to me as a passenger a few years back.
Last bus of the night, after pubs had shut. Six of us on the bus: me alone, four chaps on the back seat minding their own business, a teenage girl, and a scruffy pissed up bloke. He sits behind the girl and starts making lewd comments. She moves seats twice to avoid him, he follows her. Eventually I say to him "Why don't you leave her alone, can't you see she's scared of you?"
So he comes and sits behind me and says "OK, I'll come and annoy you. No actually I'll kill you.............." with which he stands up and his hand goes for his jacket pocket.
I grab him by the throat until he turns blue and goes limp, smack him in the face with my other hand and break his nose. While he's stunned I frogmarch him to the front of the bus, the driver opens the door, I kick him down the steps, the driver shuts the door and pulls away quickly with the drunk screaming abuse. Driver stops a mile down the road and checks the girl is OK.
Lots of questions here. At what point should the driver have got involved in protecting the girl? Should he have stayed in the cab and risked assault on the girl? Was I right in getting involved? What would you have done?

 

[PeterC]

Morally - definitely
Legally - get council's opinion
Driver - depends if the press got hold of the story. If he followed procedure and the girl was injured while they waited for the police he company might feel pressured to sack him.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

the problem with "call the police and await assistance" is that quite often that can mean a very VERY long wait... ok so in London you have centrecomm and a dedicated police response team and assistance is swift... when working as a controller in London I was headbutted by a passenger, while I wrestled the culprit to the ground the driver called code red and police arrived within 10 mins...

however, to many forces outside of London, providing assistance to drivers with problem passengers is the lowest priority. I won't name them but there is at least one police force who admit quite openly that they will not provide assistance under any circumstances unless there is a risk to life! I have in the past been left "awaiting assistance" for up to TWO HOURS!

The question there is, at what point do you give up on doing things by the book and take the law into your own hands when faced with an abusive and/or aggressive person on the vehicle and no help forthcoming?

 

[175mph]

OK, so here's something that happened to me as a passenger a few years back.
Last bus of the night, after pubs had shut. Six of us on the bus: me alone, four chaps on the back seat minding their own business, a teenage girl, and a scruffy ****ed up bloke. He sits behind the girl and starts making lewd comments. She moves seats twice to avoid him, he follows her. Eventually I say to him "Why don't you leave her alone, can't you see she's scared of you?"
So he comes and sits behind me and says "OK, I'll come and annoy you. No actually I'll kill you.............." with which he stands up and his hand goes for his jacket pocket.
I grab him by the throat until he turns blue and goes limp, smack him in the face with my other hand and break his nose. While he's stunned I frogmarch him to the front of the bus, the driver opens the door, I kick him down the steps, the driver shuts the door and pulls away quickly with the drunk screaming abuse. Driver stops a mile down the road and checks the girl is OK.
Lots of questions here. At what point should the driver have got involved in protecting the girl? Should he have stayed in the cab and risked assault on the girl? Was I right in getting involved? What would you have done?

I would be having a few sleepless nights for in case the police knock on my door about it. I think grabbing him by the neck and forcing him off was more than enough without touching his face.

 

[randyrippley]

I would be having a few sleepless nights for in case the police knock on my door about it. I think grabbing him by the neck and forcing him off was more than enough without touching his face.

the worry that he was about to pull a knife on me and I wanted to distract him
I can understand your point of view though

 

[randyrippley]

.............The question there is, at what point do you give up on doing things by the book and take the law into your own hands when faced with an abusive and/or aggressive person on the vehicle and no help forthcoming?

Isn't there a common-law "duty of care" which would find you guilty if you DIDN'T intervene to help a passenger who was in physical danger?

 

[baz962]

Isn't there a common-law "duty of care" which would find you guilty if you DIDN'T intervene to help a passenger who was in physical danger?

Not in law, and it is not our point, it is the law's. the basic rule of self defence in law, is the minimum amount of force needed, so the other poster is correct. Intervening is fine, and I would as an ex licenced bodygaurd and security operative, however the law would see it that once going limp and turning blue, the broken nose was unjustified, and so would kicking him down the stair's. The law would also impose a duty of care to the drunk, what if after choking him, breaking his nose, then throwing him off the bus, he for example contracted complication's and was seriously injured or even worse died. Another point to note is that some law authority's actually take a dim view to choking out as it in itself is dangerous, that's why law enforcement and security contractor's are taught hold's etc. By the way I am not sticking up for the drunk, I myself had quite a few interview's with the police etc in my career after being close to that line, but I never overstepped it.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Isn't there a common-law "duty of care" which would find you guilty if you DIDN'T intervene to help a passenger who was in physical danger?

I think you missed the main thrust of my post which is that to many police forces providing assistance to bus drivers is such a low priority that awaiting that assistance is a non-starter for dealing with the situation

 

[Flying Snail]

I think you missed the main thrust of my post which is that to many police forces providing assistance to bus drivers is such a low priority that awaiting that assistance is a non-starter for dealing with the situation

It's a good point and I've been in that situation myself a few times. The Irish police are useless, not entirely their fault as they are understaffed, under-resourced and hampered by judges who give suspended sentences to people with hundreds of previous convictions so expecting a speedy response is out of the question. Even when the do show up will try their best to not take responsibility for a situation so essentially you are on your own.

I have put my hands on people a couple of times. One attacked me because I confiscated his fake free travel pass, a massive fat b******, probably 20 stone plus, had me pinned to the seat. If I had gotten a hand free it would have been a ticket punch to the eyeball for him, luckily some other passengers pulled him off me.

The other was your typical scummer type who stood half-on the bus purposefully so that his pal who he was phoning could travel, as soon as he threatened me I gave him a good shove and closed the door. Nearest police station in both cases was miles away, would have been hours waiting if they turned up at all.

It is certainly something you are not told in the various bus company training schools but you are on your own in that job in every sense.

I know that it is increasingly becoming a thing that people will ring 999 and exaggerate a scenario to get police action, say there is a weapon involved or similar because they know that it will get a quicker response, it's the inevitable response to "minor" issues being ignored.

On the other end of the scale I had a pair of drunks causing hassle one night on my way from Derry, called the PSNI station I would be driving past 5 minutes up the road and as I stopped outside a van load of officers descended on the coach and dealt with the problem within 2 minutes, told me the gents would be their unwilling guests for the night and away I went practically on-time.