91119: Returns to service and in Swallow livery too!

[43096]

For road vehicles BR was self-insured but I think on privatisation most of the new businesses took out conventional insurance, presumably because they were smaller and less able to stand a big loss, or they ran so few vehicles it wasn't worth getting a special arrangement set up.

Correct. Basically the ROSCOs won't lease to you unless you have insurance. Remember the TOCs do not have hefty balance sheets to support "self insurance" and it is too much risk for the ROSCOs to assume they do.

 

[dubscottie]

For road vehicles BR was self-insured but I think on privatisation most of the new businesses took out conventional insurance, presumably because they were smaller and less able to stand a big loss, or they ran so few vehicles it wasn't worth getting a special arrangement set up.

When my dad worked with BR, any vehicle he drove had to carry a BR "Certificate of Security" disc even if they were hire cars. (Found his old BR "licence")

IIRC it was because private insurance on the hire cars would not cover him because of the goods/equipment he carried.

Was there not an kerfuffle with the new 11 car pendos because of insurance?

I think a private insurance co said they could not run alongside 9 coach ones for a period of time or something similar?

 

[mark-h]

For a household or a small business, the cost of an unexpected vehicle replacement is usually unaffordable, and hence insurance is necessary.

For cars it is possible, and required by law, to have "Third Party" insurance which covers the potential damage caused by the vehicle but excludes any damage to the vehicle itself.

When companies "self insure" they will still have an agreement with an underwriter who will cover claims above their ability to self insure (the excess).

 

[whhistle]

Was there not an kerfuffle with the new 11 car pendos because of insurance?

I think a private insurance co said they could not run alongside 9 coach ones for a period of time or something similar?

I believe it was that two 11-coach trains couldn't pass each other for a while, at speed.
Like a new car, the insurance is higher on that vehicle because it's new.
IF two 11-coach trains crashed somehow, the bill would be huge. However a 9 and 11 coach wouldn't be so high because the 9-coaches were older.

I also understand this only applied to the brand new 11-coach trains, not the ones that were made up from 9 to 11.

 

[BestWestern]

I believe it was that two 11-coach trains couldn't pass each other for a while, at speed.
Like a new car, the insurance is higher on that vehicle because it's new.
IF two 11-coach trains crashed somehow, the bill would be huge. However a 9 and 11 coach wouldn't be so high because the 9-coaches were younger.

I also understand this only applied to the brand new 11-coach trains, not the ones that were made up from 9 to 11.

Really?! Wow

 

[Southern Dvr]

They're up and down the WCML pretty much daily on runs to and from Coatbridge.

Only north of Crewe I think, certainly I've not seen any FL 90s on the GEML. Someone did say that it was the current plan to keep them on the north out of Crewe work. No idea how that works logistically mind.

 

[ash39]

I believe it was that two 11-coach trains couldn't pass each other for a while, at speed.
Like a new car, the insurance is higher on that vehicle because it's new.
IF two 11-coach trains crashed somehow, the bill would be huge. However a 9 and 11 coach wouldn't be so high because the 9-coaches were younger.

I also understand this only applied to the brand new 11-coach trains, not the ones that were made up from 9 to 11.

In my experience, the performance of the car and the postcode where the vehicle is kept overnight has way more impact on the policy cost than the age of the car. The age/value of the car is (stangely) almost negligible.

 

[whhistle]

In my experience, the performance of the car and the postcode where the vehicle is kept overnight has way more impact on the policy cost than the age of the car. The age/value of the car is (stangely) almost negligible.

Absolutely. But remember we're talking about trains not cars.

Don't quote me on it but I'm more than 85% sure that was the reason given by Virgin internally at the time. I choose that percentage as a gauge to decide if it's reliable info or not.

 

[dubscottie]

In my experience, the performance of the car and the postcode where the vehicle is kept overnight has way more impact on the policy cost than the age of the car. The age/value of the car is (stangely) almost negligible.

While here in Ireland, insurance companies won't quote you if the car is more than 10 years old!

 

[colchesterken]

How about using the shell and the bogies and motors ( if still OK ) To build an up to date new loco using the latest off the shelf equipment
Newer gear is often smaller and lighter than the old stuff It could be a test bed super loco

 

[59CosG95]

How about using the shell and the bogies and motors ( if still OK ) To build an up to date new loco using the latest off the shelf equipment
Newer gear is often smaller and lighter than the old stuff It could be a test bed super loco

You would then have to spend much time and money testing the new equipment - most "Super locos" nowadays tend to have AC traction motors/equipment. Track circuits would have to be immunised if they weren't already (or if not replaced by axle counters). Approval for entry into service would be a nightmare too - I think, if it was easier, the 91s' traction equipment would have been replaced a while ago.
Eversholt's plan for the Mk4 sets definitely envisaged either a re-tractioned 91 or a brand new electric loco at the head of a 225 rake (such as a UK loading gauge TRAXX or Vectron)...can't remember which one off the top of my head.

 

[cj_1985]

You would then have to spend much time and money testing the new equipment - most "Super locos" nowadays tend to have AC traction motors/equipment. Track circuits would have to be immunised if they weren't already (or if not replaced by axle counters). Approval for entry into service would be a nightmare too - I think, if it was easier, the 91s' traction equipment would have been replaced a while ago.
Eversholt's plan for the Mk4 sets definitely envisaged either a re-tractioned 91 or a brand new electric loco at the head of a 225 rake (such as a UK loading gauge TRAXX or Vectron)...can't remember which one off the top of my head.

Traxx was the one mentioned in the railway press at the time this was being touted

 

[Peter Mugridge]

While here in Ireland, insurance companies won't quote you if the car is more than 10 years old!

Is that actually legal?

 

[cj_1985]

Is that actually legal?

Can't see it as any different to some breakdown services refusing to quote you/cover you if your car is over 10 years old

 

[Hadders]

Many large companies self insure. To get around the law where insurance is required (eg. motor insurance for company vehicles) they usually have a 3rd party policy in place with a ridiculous excess (like £1million).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Can't see it as any different to some breakdown services refusing to quote you/cover you if your car is over 10 years old

Interesting... I didn't know any did that. I have no problems getting either insurance or breakdown cover ( this is UK, not Ireland, obviously ) for my 21½ year old car.

 

[cj_1985]

Interesting... I didn't know any did that. I have no problems getting either insurance or breakdown cover ( this is UK, not Ireland, obviously ) for my 21½ year old car.

I experienced the breakdown cover issue when I renewed my policy with Green Flag. Didn't affect me as my car is only coming up on 6 years old. It will cause an issue next year if my brother wants kept on the policy as his car is coming up on 10 years old this year. but that's off topic

 

[ScottDarg]

It was reported elsewhere 90018 was moved to Tyne today - could this be part of a series of positioning moves for VTEC hire? Or does DB have work out of Tyne that could use electric traction?

Quick update on this: Railcam shows 90018 allocated to 6D67 Tyne - Doncaster last night and 0Z11 Belmont Down Yard - Bounds Green today. Not sure if it's replacing one of the other 90s or if it's an additional hire-in.

 

[43096]

Quick update on this: Railcam shows 90018 allocated to 6D67 Tyne - Doncaster last night and 0Z11 Belmont Down Yard - Bounds Green today. Not sure if it's replacing one of the other 90s or if it's an additional hire-in.

Reported elsewhere that 90039 is assigned a C exam at Crewe, so presumably a replacement. 90039 also reported to be only on three motors.

 

[hexagon789]

Reported elsewhere that 90039 is assigned a C exam at Crewe, so presumably a replacement. 90039 also reported to be only on three motors.

Was it in passenger service on just 3 motors?

 

[edwin_m]

When my dad worked with BR, any vehicle he drove had to carry a BR "Certificate of Security" disc even if they were hire cars. (Found his old BR "licence")

IIRC it was because private insurance on the hire cars would not cover him because of the goods/equipment he carried.

Was there not an kerfuffle with the new 11 car pendos because of insurance?

I think a private insurance co said they could not run alongside 9 coach ones for a period of time or something similar?

I believe it was that two 11-coach trains couldn't pass each other for a while, at speed.
Like a new car, the insurance is higher on that vehicle because it's new.
IF two 11-coach trains crashed somehow, the bill would be huge. However a 9 and 11 coach wouldn't be so high because the 9-coaches were older.

I also understand this only applied to the brand new 11-coach trains, not the ones that were made up from 9 to 11.

BR may have declined the insurance on hire cars and included them in its own self-insurance arrangement.

I remember in the run-up to privatisation we had to hire a car (complete with the hire company's insurance) if one was needed for "private party" work, because the pool cars were on BR's self-insurance arrangement which only covered use in association with its own business.

The insurance issue on the 11-car pendos was with the two extra ones that were ordered as part of the same programme as the lengthening. For some reasons they couldn't put them on the same policy as the rest of the fleet and the extra policy they got would, I think, only cover for serious damage to one of the trains. So they were timetabled never to pass each other in case they collided.

 

[D365]

The insurance issue on the 11-car pendos was with the two extra ones that were ordered as part of the same programme as the lengthening.

Four, actually, including the Grayrigg replacement. Which would have only exacerbated the problem.

 

[Bevan Price]

I’ve certainly not seen any Class 90s on Freightliner work this year.
Do DB Cargo not have any 90s available for short term loan?

Pairs of Freightliner 90s regularly work Scotland / Daventry liners; 2 diagrams / 4 locos I believe.

DB has unused 90s at Crewe, but most would need a lot of money to get them back into service.

 

[ScottDarg]

Pairs of Freightliner 90s regularly work Scotland / Daventry liners; 2 diagrams / 4 locos I believe.

DB has unused 90s at Crewe, but most would need a lot of money to get them back into service.

Yep - 4S44/4M49 and 4S45/4M27. 4S44/4M49 yesterday (and 4S44 today) were 66-hauled which may indicate a shortage of available 90s at the moment.

The active 90s used by DB (that aren't hired out to TOCs) pretty much exclusively work freight services in and out of Scotland I believe - intermodals to Daventry/Mossend and Dagenham/Mossend car carriers. I'd be surprised if DB reinstated any of the stored ones given they're only using 4 of 11 active on freight - 6 or 7 when you include the hiring of them to TOCs.

 

[Class 170101]

Freightliner diagramming seems erratic to me. One day a given working will be a pair of Class 86s the next day it seems to be a Class 66.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Can't see it as any different to some breakdown services refusing to quote you/cover you if your car is over 10 years old

It's very different. Without insurance, the car is illegal to drive.

 

[HSTEd]

It's very different. Without insurance, the car is illegal to drive.

Unless you have made use of the alternative arrangement ofcourse, where you post a bond of the required value in escrow with the required authorities.

 

[DarloRich]

How about using the shell and the bogies and motors ( if still OK ) To build an up to date new loco using the latest off the shelf equipment
Newer gear is often smaller and lighter than the old stuff It could be a test bed super loco

Why? Why not just fix the thing and get it back into service pdq?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Unless you have made use of the alternative arrangement ofcourse, where you post a bond of the required value in escrow with the required authorities.

And who is going to do that on an old banger (I am not counting classic cars here - just the majority of cars 10-15 years old - as this relates to cars over 10 years old being almost uninsurable in Ireland), because the escrow is likely to be significantly more than the car is worth.

 

[hexagon789]

Why? Why not just fix the thing and get it back into service pdq?

I would just fix the thing, it seems more logical.