91119: Returns to service and in Swallow livery too!

[43096]

SNCF did apparently hire out the NoL (33xx) sets, but never turned a wheel with them in passenger service.
3301/2, 3303/4, 3305/6, 3307, and 3311/2 are all stored somewhere in France...I don't quite know where.
3309/10 and 3313/4 were cut up in December 2014 at Ambérieu, a day apart.

That is partly correct. SNCF leased the NoL sets (minus set 3308) for use on internal French services from Eurostar. They definitely were used by SNCF until taken out of service in December 2014 and stored. They remained the property of Eurostar.

Do you have a source for the disposal of the sets, because this is the first time I have seen them quoted as being scrapped.

As you say, off topic though, and probably one for the Eurostar thread!

 

[D365]

I can't remember the approximate dates for service introduction, but I believe the EC 800s were planned to replace the HSTs first. Could those HSTs, after being 'replaced', be retained a little longer and and fill in for any early IC225 withdrawals where they might happen?

 

[Sirgerbil]

Was at Bound's Green yesterday picking up a set and this was being discussed, It is going to "Fixed" however won't be until the summer it's back out on the road.

 

[59CosG95]

Was at Bound's Green yesterday picking up a set and this was being discussed, It is going to "Fixed" however won't be until the summer it's back out on the road.

And by that time, it may well be operating under a banner different to VTEC...

That is partly correct. SNCF leased the NoL sets (minus set 3308) for use on internal French services from Eurostar. They definitely were used by SNCF until taken out of service in December 2014 and stored. They remained the property of Eurostar.

Do you have a source for the disposal of the sets, because this is the first time I have seen them quoted as being scrapped.

As you say, off topic though, and probably one for the Eurostar thread!

The source for the Euroscrap gen was (ashamedly) from Wikipedia - maybe the person with the gen on the sets forgot to add a source, or that the source was for "internal circulation" only.

 

[158722]

Was at Bound's Green yesterday picking up a set and this was being discussed, It is going to "Fixed" however won't be until the summer it's back out on the road.

I heard the very same from what will probably be a separate source. Remember that this will be a ROSCO decision, nothing to do with VTEC.

 

[XCTurbostar]

This is an interesting conclusion that it is going to be repaired. The ROSCO obviously sees life in them beyond VTEC.

 

[43096]

I heard the very same from what will probably be a separate source. Remember that this will be a ROSCO decision, nothing to do with VTEC.

Not quite. As the vehicle was damaged whilst working for VTEC, the decision will involve Eversholt, VTEC and the insurers for both parties. It's a similar situation to the repair on 43160 after its collision at Plymouth - it has no future use after GWR finish with it, but the ROSCO took the view that they wanted it repaired: if nothing else it was GWR/their insurers who paid for it, so why wouldn't they?

 

[87015]

If only the flying badger was still operational!

If they can’t manage to keep the 91s working how many hours would they cope with that mobile breakdown machine until it was also parked up broke?!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If they can’t manage to keep the 91s working how many hours would they cope with that mobile breakdown machine until it was also parked up broke?!

It was obviously a tongue-in-cheek comment, but in any case I remember reading somewhere that in GNER days it wasn't significantly more prone to breakdowns than the 91s were: but being a one-off the issue was sourcing parts whenever something did go 'pop'.

 

[captainbigun]

It was obviously a tongue-in-cheek comment, but in any case I remember reading somewhere that in GNER days it wasn't significantly more prone to breakdowns than the 91s were: but being a one-off the issue was sourcing parts whenever something did go 'pop'.

Correct, once it’d been through Brush and settled down it was no rose than anything else. A lot of old nonsense is spouted. Some repairs did take longer as spares had to be sourced specifically.

 

[cj_1985]

in theory, if VTEC came to the ACLG with a black cheque, how long would it take to get her in service?

 

[Ianno87]

That is partly correct. SNCF leased the NoL sets (minus set 3308) for use on internal French services from Eurostar. They definitely were used by SNCF until taken out of service in December 2014 and stored. They remained the property of Eurostar.

Do you have a source for the disposal of the sets, because this is the first time I have seen them quoted as being scrapped.

As you say, off topic though, and probably one for the Eurostar thread!

I do specifically remember seeing an NoL 33xx set at Gare du Nord on a domestic LGV Nord working in 2009.

 

[cjmillsnun]

in theory, if VTEC came to the ACLG with a black cheque, how long would it take to get her in service?

Too long. The 80X will likely be in service. It would be quicker to repair 119

 

[captainbigun]

Too long. The 80X will likely be in service. It would be quicker to repair 119

Based on???

Could be done in three months, most of it overhauled and ready to go back in.

However, little chance that VTEC would revisit.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The physical work yes,

Then there is re-registering on TOPS, gaining approval for mainline running, fault free test running, fitting TPWS, GSMR, driver training enough drivers, training people to service it...

It definitely would be quicker to fix 119, and the 80x is due to enter service this year.

 

[captainbigun]

It’s a pointless debate. But having done all of that for several classes including first of class fitment I politely disagree. Why does approval or registration take a long time? It’s already approved and registered!!

As for IET....that’s gone well, hasn’t it.

 

[Wivenswold]

Not quite. As the vehicle was damaged whilst working for VTEC, the decision will involve Eversholt, VTEC and the insurers for both parties. It's a similar situation to the repair on 43160 after its collision at Plymouth - it has no future use after GWR finish with it, but the ROSCO took the view that they wanted it repaired: if nothing else it was GWR/their insurers who paid for it, so why wouldn't they?

I'd be very surprised if Eversholt or VTEC have insurance for the loco. They'll have all manner of insurance policies for public and employer's liability, liabilities to other parties, Directors & Officers insurance, large loss protection etc. Most public transport operators with stock that has an intangible value (go on, put a realistic replacement value on a Class 91) will be self-insuring, that is, shoulder the risk themselves.

More likely that theere will be a series of meetings between Eversholt, VTEC and Network Rail over who was responsible for the damage and it will be settled that way or in court.

 

[Class 170101]

Freightliner will soon not be hiring 90s our for the Sleepers. Happy to see them on VTEC services.

Class 90s not available for sleepers - currently being used on supermarket traffic apparently - they have been missing in action on Intermodals on the GEML too.

 

[whhistle]

Too long. The 80X will likely be in service. It would be quicker to repair 119

That doesn't answer the question though.
The real answer that you should have posted is "I don't know".
IF Virgin offered a billion pounds, I should expect it to take a matter of months at the most. Highly unlikely, but look at what the person asked... blank cheque...

 

[tgrb]

I'd be very surprised if Eversholt or VTEC have insurance for the loco. They'll have all manner of insurance policies for public and employer's liability, liabilities to other parties, Directors & Officers insurance, large loss protection etc. Most public transport operators with stock that has an intangible value (go on, put a realistic replacement value on a Class 91) will be self-insuring, that is, shoulder the risk themselves.

More likely that theere will be a series of meetings between Eversholt, VTEC and Network Rail over who was responsible for the damage and it will be settled that way or in court.

Also I guess some responsibility will come down to who does the maintenance - have VTEC got a wet or dry lease?

Either way an interesting point about insurance - I've driven Road vehicles before that are under that basis for the MoD but given this is a commercial operation and I'd be surprised if they weren't insured - I guess you could argue weather a 91 is worth what you can scrap it for, or at least in 12 months time that will probably be the case but right now to VTEC at least it's going to be costing them not having it.... so the insurance would be not only paying for repair but hiring a replacement?

I'm just looking at this from an operational perspective how I'd expect it would work, I've now experience or knowledge in the world of the railways!

 

[BestWestern]

Also I guess some responsibility will come down to who does the maintenance - have VTEC got a wet or dry lease?

Either way an interesting point about insurance - I've driven Road vehicles before that are under that basis for the MoD but given this is a commercial operation and I'd be surprised if they weren't insured - I guess you could argue weather a 91 is worth what you can scrap it for, or at least in 12 months time that will probably be the case but right now to VTEC at least it's going to be costing them not having it.... so the insurance would be not only paying for repair but hiring a replacement?

I'm just looking at this from an operational perspective how I'd expect it would work, I've now experience or knowledge in the world of the railways!

It's not just MOD road vehicles. Major bus operators (First, Stagecoach etc) are of course commercial operations and are also self-insured. If a vehicle is lost, there's no insurer's cheque arriving to replace it!

 

[tgrb]

It's not just MOD road vehicles. Major bus operators (First, Stagecoach etc) are of course commercial operations and are also self-insured. If a vehicle is lost, there's no insurer's cheque arriving to replace it!

Oh interesting. So with the MoD they have a insurance company (or similar) that assesses third party claims and then write a cheque, do they do the same?

 

[BestWestern]

Oh interesting. So with the MoD they have a insurance company (or similar) that assesses third party claims and then write a cheque, do they do the same?

I believe it's all handled internally...

 

[a_c_skinner]

There is a general public policy not to insure, I think. It is about risk sharing and if you are very big it is cheaper to carry the risk yourself.

 

[edwin_m]

For road vehicles BR was self-insured but I think on privatisation most of the new businesses took out conventional insurance, presumably because they were smaller and less able to stand a big loss, or they ran so few vehicles it wasn't worth getting a special arrangement set up.

As to 91119, perhaps it is that they have enough spare parts in stock to replace most of the damaged items, and in view of the limited life of the fleet they feel it is acceptable to run down the spares holding?

 

[xotGD]

For road vehicles BR was self-insured but I think on privatisation most of the new businesses took out conventional insurance, presumably because they were smaller and less able to stand a big loss, or they ran so few vehicles it wasn't worth getting a special arrangement set up.

As to 91119, perhaps it is that they have enough spare parts in stock to replace most of the damaged items, and in view of the limited life of the fleet they feel it is acceptable to run down the spares holding?

They could always just keep switching the numbers around on the locos to make a fleet of 30 appear to be a fleet of 31. Indeed, can we be sure that they aren't doing this already? (Some people might even think that there are 32!)

 

[InTheEastMids]

There is a general public policy not to insure, I think. It is about risk sharing and if you are very big it is cheaper to carry the risk yourself.

Government is also is the effective insurer for some risks that no private sector player can or will carry (EdF, I'm looking at you...)

Love the Friday afternoon comments about maybe bringing back the 89. Obviously only a couple of glasses of Sherry away from suggesting that VTEC heads off to Crewe to see if class 370s could be pressed into service as emergency cover...

 

[swaldman]

Re self-insuring: The whole point of insurance is that on average, the insurer takes in more in premiums than they pay out in claims. That's the business model. Hence, if you can afford to take the loss yourself, it's cheaper in the long run not to insure.

For a household or a small business, the cost of an unexpected vehicle replacement is usually unaffordable, and hence insurance is necessary. For a bus or rail operator, the cost of a vehicle, while significant, is something that they can absorb - so it's cheaper for them to do that occasionally than insure it.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Class 90s not available for sleepers - currently being used on supermarket traffic apparently - they have been missing in action on Intermodals on the GEML too.

I’ve certainly not seen any Class 90s on Freightliner work this year.
Do DB Cargo not have any 90s available for short term loan?

 

[ScottDarg]

Class 90s not available for sleepers - currently being used on supermarket traffic apparently - they have been missing in action on Intermodals on the GEML too.

There's 3x FL 90s on hire to the Sleeper now - 016, 046 and 047. It's usually been 2 on hire since the first of the 92s went into Brush for Mk.5 mods.

I’ve certainly not seen any Class 90s on Freightliner work this year.

They're up and down the WCML pretty much daily on runs to and from Coatbridge.

Do DB Cargo not have any 90s available for short term loan?

I think they've already got 2 or 3 on hire - 2 for VTEC and 1 for Greater Anglia I believe.

It was reported elsewhere 90018 was moved to Tyne today - could this be part of a series of positioning moves for VTEC hire? Or does DB have work out of Tyne that could use electric traction?