Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Andrew Nelson]

That will be one of the key tests of whether Northern's timetable recast has bern designed on a properly thought though basis-have they eliminated most of the ridiculously long and wasteful layovers that occur too often at present?

They don't seem to have abolished the bus like close running of services though.
As pointed out else ware, there will be two Trains between Kirkgate and Castleford, but possibly only 5 min's apart.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

For tomorrow, a train times from Normanton to Huddersfield:

Normanton Wakefield K Wakefield K Huddersfield
07:04 07:09 07:50 08:17
07:57 08:03 08:49 09:17
08:59 09:04 09:50 10:16
10:00 10:05 10:50 11:17
10:09 11:04 11:50 12:17

If you type Normanton to Wakefield Westgate into NRE, you'll get half hour journeys as its almost always quicker to walk across Wakefield.

Or get the free bus?

 

[stu99]

There are new services being added slowly but surely 21:00 morpeth to Carlisle was added this morning

 

[Andrew Nelson]

For tomorrow, a train times from Normanton to Huddersfield:

Normanton Wakefield K Wakefield K Huddersfield
07:04 07:09 07:50 08:17
07:57 08:03 08:49 09:17
08:59 09:04 09:50 10:16
10:00 10:05 10:50 11:17
10:09 11:04 11:50 12:17

If you type Normanton to Wakefield Westgate into NRE, you'll get half hour journeys as its almost always quicker to walk across Wakefield.

I guess it was always running late then.

 

[yorksrob]

Or get the free bus?

Yes, although it doesn't run on Sundays. It's still not as quick or convenient as a good train connection.

In terms of the Huddersfield service, it would be a crying shame if it wasn't used to provide a decent interval service between Wakefield and Castleford at least.

 

[yorksrob]

I guess it was always running late then.

Quite possibly, depending on time of day.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Yes, although it doesn't run on Sundays. It's still not as quick or convenient as a good train connection.

In terms of the Huddersfield service, it would be a crying shame if it wasn't used to provide a decent interval service between Wakefield and Castleford at least.

To be fair, I know the Bus doesn't run on a Sunday, but the neither does the Train.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Quite possibly, depending on time of day.

Usually the 16:31 from Huddersfield.

 

[TUC]

They don't seem to have abolished the bus like close running of services though.
As pointed out else ware, there will be two Trains between Kirkgate and Castleford, but possibly only 5 min's apart.

To say nothing of the apparent bunching through the Calder Valley. It's difficult to understand how Northern expects such things to be seen as improvements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To say nothing of the apparent bunching through the Calder Valley. It's difficult to understand how Northern expects such things to be seen as improvements.

I still take the view that on any service that is half-hourly or better they really should max out train lengths before increasing frequency.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I still take the view that on any service that is half-hourly or better they really should max out train lengths before increasing frequency.

Said the exact same thing to my partner when waiting at Huddersfield last night.

Why do we need 6 Trains per hour between Leeds an Manchester?

Fair enough if there were 6 different destinations.

But why not have longer Trains in the core, and split at Manchester and or Leeds?

Obviously it would have been easier if TPX had got better designed Trains with gangways, (Not to mention proper luggage space for services going to an AIRPORT)

 

[transmanche]

Why do we need 6 Trains per hour between Leeds an Manchester?

Becasue passengers like turn-up-and-go frequencies and they're good for encouraging passengers as they know there isn't a long wait should they miss a train.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Becasue passengers like turn-up-and-go frequencies and they're good for encouraging passengers as they know there isn't a long wait should they miss a train.

Fine on a metro system where the trains all stop at the same stations.

But people should be able to read a Timetable, to see when they should be there.

 

[lejog]

I still take the view that on any service that is half-hourly or better they really should max out train lengths before increasing frequency.

Currently there is only 1 service at 2tph on the Calder Valley (Leeds to Manchester via Bradford) and 4 hourly services (Blackpool-York, Blackburn-Manchester, Leeds to Manchester via Brighouse, Leeds to Huddersfield via Brighouse).

 

[Deerfold]

Currently there is only 1 service at 2tph on the Calder Valley (Leeds to Manchester via Bradford) and 4 hourly services (Blackpool-York, Blackburn-Manchester, Leeds to Manchester via Brighouse, Leeds to Huddersfield via Brighouse).

I think that comment was aimed at the 6tph via Huddersfield.

 

[notlob.divad]

Why do we need 6 Trains per hour between Leeds an Manchester?

Fair enough if there were 6 different destinations.

But in general it is pairs of destinations that matter. Splitting and Joining Trains can work well, where the load is high at one end of the journey, (Services that join on the outskirts of London and run into the centre in one path) However joining at one end running through a busy central section and splitting at the other, whilst it may sound wonderful in a forum or sketched out on a piece of paper, when the plan hits the real world, in practice it becomes far too unreliable. Small delays on outer branches causing huge knock on effects in the core which precipitate through to branches on the other side. Add in the pathing across the busy North-South lines which has to happen at each end and the whole thing would become a nightmare leading the timetable to become n aspiration rather than something people could plan their lives around.

 

[AndrewE]

But in general it is pairs of destinations that matter. Splitting and Joining Trains can work well, where the load is high at one end of the journey, (Services that join on the outskirts of London and run into the centre in one path) However joining at one end running through a busy central section and splitting at the other, whilst it may sound wonderful in a forum or sketched out on a piece of paper, when the plan hits the real world, in practice it becomes far too unreliable...

Do you think 2 or 3 "Y" shaped services might be a goer then? Continuing with the London example, mMaybe two trains joining en route from the south coast and running to a single northern destination, plus a mirror image from 2 other northern origins running to a single southern destination?
Liverpool to Newcastle and Scarborough, plus Hull to Blackpool and somewhere else (Crewe?) picking random potential termini "up here."

 

[northwichcat]

Said the exact same thing to my partner when waiting at Huddersfield last night.

Why do we need 6 Trains per hour between Leeds an Manchester?

Fair enough if there were 6 different destinations.

But why not have longer Trains in the core, and split at Manchester and or Leeds?

Obviously it would have been easier if TPX had got better designed Trains with gangways, (Not to mention proper luggage space for services going to an AIRPORT)

You need to remember the number of fast services between Manchester and Leeds is not being increased, they are actually being decreased. Currently there are 5 services per hour which call at no more than 3 stations between Manchester and Leeds - that will be reduced to 4 services per hour. The additional train is effectively the Victoria-Huddersfield service being joined on to the Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds stopper, running from Piccadilly instead of Victoria and some stops being omitted and picked up by the Hull train instead. The result will be a more consistent timetable with Victoria-York being roughly every 15 minutes.

You've spent the past few days moaning about changes which cause Mirfield to lose connections and now you're moaning about changes which see Mirfield gain connections! :roll: Network Rail consulted on the changes and most people using village stations said they'd rather have a new service to Leeds/Manchester than retain a direct service to a little village a few miles than the road, when there's already decent local bus services.

TPE are replacing the 185s on express services with 5 carriage sets but the 185s will continue to run the slow services, the first set has already been completed and is currently being tested. Have you just woken up from a 3 year sleep?

 

[lejog]

I think that comment was aimed at the 6tph via Huddersfield.

Possibly, but Bletchleyite's post specifically quotes a post concerning Calder Valley services.

 

[Deerfold]

Possibly, but Bletchleyite's post specifically quotes a post concerning Calder Valley services.

Too much going on in this thread! Quite right.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You need to remember the number of fast services between Manchester and Leeds is not being increased, they are actually being decreased. Currently there are 5 services per hour which call at no more than 3 stations between Manchester and Leeds - that will be reduced to 4 services per hour. The additional train is effectively the Victoria-Huddersfield service being joined on to the Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds stopper, running from Piccadilly instead of Victoria and some stops being omitted and picked up by the Hull train instead. The result will be a more consistent timetable with Victoria-York being roughly every 15 minutes.

You've spent the past few days moaning about changes which cause Mirfield to lose connections and now you're moaning about changes which see Mirfield gain connections! :roll: Network Rail consulted on the changes and most people using village stations said they'd rather have a new service to Leeds/Manchester than retain a direct service to a little village a few miles than the road, when there's already decent local bus services.

TPE are replacing the 185s on express services with 5 carriage sets but the 185s will continue to run the slow services, the first set has already been completed and is currently being tested. Have you just woken up from a 3 year sleep?

Where have I complained about gains?

 

[northwichcat]

Mirfield doesn't gain ANY connections whatsoever.

Incorrect. Mirfield will gain new hourly direct services to Marsden, Greenfield, Stalybridge, Manchester Piccadilly, Salford Central, Salford Crescent, Atherton, Wigan Wallgate and Southport among others. Consequently that will make it easier to get to places such as Preston, Bolton, Liverpool, Blackpool, The Lake District, Carlisle, Chester, North Wales etc. from Mirfield by train.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Incorrect. Mirfield will gain new hourly direct services to Marsden, Greenfield, Stalybridge, Manchester Piccadilly, Salford Central, Salford Crescent, Atherton, Wigan Wallgate and Southport among others. Consequently that will make it easier to get to places such as Preston, Bolton, Liverpool, Blackpool, The Lake District, Carlisle, Chester, North Wales etc. from Mirfield by train.

You mean reinstating the one they lost.

Show where it makes those places easier to get to?

There's been through trains to Victoria for ages, and all those places are served from there or Leeds.

(BTW, they've had that set of connections for years.)

 

[Bantamzen]

You need to remember the number of fast services between Manchester and Leeds is not being increased, they are actually being decreased. Currently there are 5 services per hour which call at no more than 3 stations between Manchester and Leeds - that will be reduced to 4 services per hour. The additional train is effectively the Victoria-Huddersfield service being joined on to the Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds stopper, running from Piccadilly instead of Victoria and some stops being omitted and picked up by the Hull train instead. The result will be a more consistent timetable with Victoria-York being roughly every 15 minutes.

A very good point well put. And even if some services were run together and split, where would they be spilt? Victoria is going to be busier with little room to allow it, and although bigger Leeds is often stretched and services sent to alternative platforms fairly frequently. It might just about work if everything ran to time with P15 & P16, but a late running TPE in front might mean either holding a splitting service outside of Leeds until one became available, or trying to shoehorn it onto another through platform alongside the multitude of other services. Any hold-ups or redirections of TPEs will often have a knock on effect for Northern services, hence the reason they are working so hard & beyond agreed deadlines to try and work the best solutions for all.

 

[northwichcat]

There's been through trains to Victoria for ages, and all those places are served from there or Leeds.

Correction - the The Lake District, Carlisle, Chester, North Wales have no regular services to Victoria, services to those places depart from Piccadilly and Oxford Rd. The likes of Preston, Bolton, Liverpool, Blackpool have services from both Piccadilly and Victoria so Mirfield having a Piccadilly service as well as a Victoria service will make it easier to get to those places (like I said if you read my post properly.) With the exception of Liverpool, the faster services generally depart from Piccadilly with slower services departing from Victoria. You're surely not suggesting passengers can easily walk or use another form of public transport to get between Piccadilly and Victoria when you don't think it's acceptable for passengers to have to do that in Wakefield?

 

[nr758123]

Network Rail consulted on the changes and most people using village stations said they'd rather have a new service to Leeds/Manchester than retain a direct service to a little village a few miles than the road, when there's already decent local bus services.

The 2012 survey was done by TfGM, not Network Rail.

I appreciate that you’re commenting on the basis of the published analysis of the survey results, but the way in which the survey was interpreted was, shall we say, a bit odd.

Firstly, although the analysis said that passengers would be supportive of losing direct connections between local stations in order to have a direct train to Leeds, the survey sheet didn’t link one to the other. When asked if they would like a direct train to Leeds, respondents would obviously say yes. That was wrongly interpreted as support for skip-stopping. Through trains to Leeds and connections to adjoining stations should not be mutually exclusive things.

The data showed a clear bias towards destinations more accessible to Victoria/Salford Central rather than Piccadilly. It was just interpreted in a way that supported what was proposed, which then wrongly stated that passenger destinations were equally split between Vic & Picc.

There were no survey questions asking commuters whether they would like their outward + return commutes to be worse than at present. Yet, because of the uneven spacing of peak services, reduction in frequency at some stations and the switch from Piccadilly to Victoria that’s what the detailed timings in the proposed May 2018 timetable will deliver.

Marsden passengers were not asked if they would like disabled access at their station to be reduced from 50% to 0%, but from May 2018 that’s what will happen.

Some of the changes in the May 2018 timetable are minor inconveniences. Some – through trains to Leeds, and the late evening services – are improvements. Unfortunately the new peak service at Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield & Mossley to/from Manchester is significantly worse even than the current inadequate service.

As to the beneficiaries of these changes, for anyone in a hurry to get from Manchester to Leeds the fastest service will be 47 minutes, which is just two minutes quicker than at present.

 

[WatcherZero]

There was a Northern briefing to TfGM Transport Committee on the May timetable this morning but it was in the closed section of the meeting as they were also discussing PTE ticket subsidy, so not on the video.

 

[transmanche]

Becasue passengers like turn-up-and-go frequencies and they're good for encouraging passengers as they know there isn't a long wait should they miss a train.

Fine on a metro system where the trains all stop at the same stations.

Also fine if you want to travel (say) from Leeds to Huddersfield or Manchester. It's not only metro systems which benefit from turn-up-and-go frequencies. Even routes like Euston to Birmingham or Euston-Manchester are approaching turn-up-and-go frequencies nowadays.

 

[DJH1971]

I tried to look on the link on the NW Sparks page, but couldn't quite fathom it out.

As for Chat Moss services, how will the frequency of the trains compare with now,.

What will be the frequency of peak trains especially from St Helens Junction and Lea Green? Will there be fewer trains?

 

[northwichcat]

I tried to look on the link on the NW Sparks page, but couldn't quite fathom it out.

As for Chat Moss services, how will the frequency of the trains compare with now,.

What will be the frequency of peak trains especially from St Helens Junction and Lea Green? Will there be fewer trains?

St Helens Junction will get fewer services but Lea Green will get more. This is because Merseytravel want to turn Lea Green in to a St Helens area Park & Ride so have requested that TPE serve Lea Green instead of St Helens Junction (as originally planned.)

They'll be no change to the Liverpool-Wigan and Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay services (which will continue to divert/extend to Victoria at peak times.) The regular Victoria service will be replaced by a Liverpool-Airport-Crewe via Chat Moss stopper and the Northern semi-fast will be withdrawn and replaced by calls on TPE service - the diverted Liverpool to Scarborough will call at Lea Green.

Newton-le-Willows will be served by Liverpool-Newcastle services, as well as the new Chester-Bradford-Leeds service.

In 2019 Northern will start a Liverpool-Bradford via Chat Moss semi-fast service. Calling patterns are tbc but Huyton will be served by it.