Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Andrew Nelson]

A two hourly service on a Sunday is hardly a measure of how flows will be when the weekday service starts, especially in the peaks. As for Mirfield, yes it "loses" out on a slightly quicker connection to London, although frankly a half hour trundle to Westgate is hardly fantastic and the only one service that benefits from connecting to a non-stop VTEC is the 06:40. All it would need to replace the Wakefield connection would be a Northern service out of Huddersfield 15 minutes earlier connecting with the same 07:00 at Leeds and your problem has been solved. And of course Northern won't be operating Leeds services from Mirfield for much longer save the Southport services, so TPE will be running them mainly as skip-stops which will probably improve timings and make London connections easier in the long run. So it could be one step back and two forward.

But if it really is the end of the world for Mirfield, maybe GC could be petitioned to re-time or add a service to run through Mirfield earlier to reach London before 09:00? It is worth making the point here that as things stand Mirfield gets just one less London service a day than Bradford does (two if you count Shipley & the Aire Valley), and surprisingly enough the world hasn't fallen in there. Yes it is eventually going to get VTECs every two hours, but a bit of perspective is needed here. Compared to lots of other places in West Yorkshire, Mirfield hasn't done that badly, and it will actually get better once the TPE & Northern Southport services get going. In the meantime places with few or no connections to one of the major commuter destinations get a fully fledged services improving their connectivity no end.

Wow, what a load of wibble.

Yes Northern WILL be operating one of the Leeds Services, and TPX will the other.
Mirfield looses a very well used flow, that means people don't have to change at Leeds.
ATM, there are no direct busses from Mirfield to Wakefield, as the Train was so much more convenient, nobody used them (2 that existed 253 and 278, disappeared on the same day).
Passengers getting the current xx:40 from Mirfield to Wakefield connect into services about 30 min's earlier than xx:36 via Leeds. (A service that is very often late).

"Mirfield gets just one less London service a day than Bradford does", yes, it's the same service!!!

As for doing better than other stations, obviously because it has 1/2 million journeys to and from it, and a good deal of interchanges.
Is the railhead for dozens of towns and villages. (including as said earlier, Dewsbury, Huddersfield and other Stations with a "better" service frequency.
And is probably one of the busiest unstaffed Stations in the county. (Without any ticket facilities).

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I'm of the view that there could and should have been a little more direct consultation since then, as that was 5 years or so ago now and the plan has changed very significantly over that time, along with requirements. But in general you are of course correct. People from Pontefract wanted more trains to Leeds I am sure that still stands, and this is the way to provide them.

They wanted Trains to London too.
That went well didn't it?

 

[tbtc]

None of these trains at the moment run at anything close to capacity, so what's the point of doubling the frequency?

The cost is to useful and well used flows, being replaced with duplicates to far less used flows.

As for the Featherstone to Leeds direct service, there has been a two hourly one for months, on a Sunday, and according to Northern Staff I've spoken to, they often outnumber passengers.

Phew, that's okay then.

I thought I'd read about the Leeds - Pontefract/ Knottingley trains having to skip Woodlesford because passengers couldn't physically fit on board (in which case doubling the Leeds - Pontefract/ Knottingley service and putting some of the Pontefract/ Knottingley passengers on the service via Fetherstone would be A Good Thing, but now that you've reassured me that there's no need for improvements then I'm convinced.

And, the Fetherstone - Leeds service on a Sunday isn't going to be much use for daily commuters, is it? A town of fifteen thousand people around fifteen minutes from Leeds, that looks ideal commuting territory to me. But these commuters don't use a bi-hourly Sunday service in sufficient volume, and that seems more important to you?

 

[Starmill]

Your opinion about the people of Featherstone wanting direct Trains to London is shot to bits by the fact that nearby Pontefract had a far better direct service, but in the main now has lost it, due to the fact NOBODY USES IT.

As for ignoring what you say.
Plenty of other posters have shown you've no idea what you're talking about.
You've obviously not the first clue as to how busy Mirfield is.
It's a well used interchange, railhead for dozens of towns an villages.
Has hundreds of passengers with season tickets for London, (not GC specific).

So, to be clear, you're furious about the loss of a couple of minutes here and there on Mirfield to London journeys, which might not even come about (you have not yet seen the timetable), and yet you are totally satisfied that nobody at all from Pontefract ever travels to London? Your claim is that lots more people travel from Mirfield to London prior to 0900 every day than from Featherstone etc to Leeds, and the needs of the former group are greater than the latter?

The idea that Mirfield will be a railhead for London over Huddersfield when the latter gains its direct trains to London is laughable. Your argument that it has worked for years is also a load of rubbish. Huddersfield to Wakefield Westgate services were introduced when Huddersfield to London trains were withdrawn. As they are now returning there is no longer a need for the service to Wakefield Westgate.

 

[Starmill]

But these commuters don't use a bi-hourly Sunday service in sufficient volume, and that seems more important to you?

Given Featherstone, Streethouse and Pontefract Tanshelf haven't had Sunday service (to anywhere at all) in decades, and there was no publicity whatsoever that I was aware of prior to the launch date, then is it really a surprise that few people have been using it?

 

[Bantamzen]

Wow, what a load of wibble.

Yes Northern WILL be operating one of the Leeds Services, and TPX will the other.
Mirfield looses a very well used flow, that means people don't have to change at Leeds.

Are there figures for this flow, or is it based on anecdotal evidence? As others have said, there have been consultations on this and they seem to have concluded that the flow from the east of Wakefield to Leeds needs more attention than Mirfield to London / Birmingham etc, so really you need to be presenting something more concrete than "I spoke to a few Northern staff" (with all due respect to them).

ATM, there are no direct busses from Mirfield to Wakefield, as the Train was so much more convenient, nobody used them (2 that existed 253 and 278, disappeared on the same day).
Passengers getting the current xx:40 from Mirfield to Wakefield connect into services about 30 min's earlier than xx:36 via Leeds. (A service that is very often late).

Is Mirfield losing it's Wakefield connection? No!! The good folk of Mirfield will still be able to get to Wakefield, and either use the free bus (which many other towns & cities have lost BTW) or walk the few minutes to the city centre, in this respect nothing is really being used especially when you consider that including turnaround time at Kirkgate it takes close to 10 minutes to get between the two stations in Wakefield. You can almost walk the entire length in the same.

"Mirfield gets just one less London service a day than Bradford does", yes, it's the same service!!!

Really, who knew? But well done on avoiding the point!!!

As for doing better than other stations, obviously because it has 1/2 million journeys to and from it, and a good deal of interchanges.
Is the railhead for dozens of towns and villages. (including as said earlier, Dewsbury, Huddersfield and other Stations with a "better" service frequency.
And is probably one of the busiest unstaffed Stations in the county. (Without any ticket facilities).

Sorry but I just don't buy that Mirfield is the major railhead you claim. Given that both Dewsbury & Huddersfield are better served in terms of both capacity & destinations than Mirfield, and that both have good links to them both by road (albeit often busy ones) & bus services plying their way around the Kirklees District I'd say that most passengers will be using these as railheads. I use Guiseley every day on my commute, and that receives more than double the number of entrances & exits yet really only serves Guiseley, yet the town has a comparable population to Mirfield. So if Mirfield really is such an important railhead, you would expect far higher usage figures. I'd wager that the majority of the morning flow at Mirfield isn't travelling anywhere much beyond Leeds and Wakefield, in which case these connections remain and little is lost. Its only the few journeys made to connecting services that might be inconvenienced, and even then there are still direct services to London (albeit by a slightly longer route), or via Leeds for slightly longer.

 

[stu99]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y29224/2018/05/27/advanced (Carlisle to Whitby)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y29228/2018/05/27/advanced (Carlisle to Nunthorpe)
Are these new additions, for Sundays? or were they not removed?

 

[absolutelymilk]

Could you guys maybe start up a Mirfield thread if you want to discuss it in such depth?

 

[bearhugger]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y29224/2018/05/27/advanced (Carlisle to Whitby)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y29228/2018/05/27/advanced (Carlisle to Nunthorpe)
Are these new additions, for Sundays? or were they not removed?

I can only comment that trains to Nunthorpe on Sundays are a very recent introduction. We have only just last year had trains to Whitby during the winter on Sundays and I **think** nunthorpe Sunday trains were introduced in the December 2017 timetable change.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Given Featherstone, Streethouse and Pontefract Tanshelf haven't had Sunday service (to anywhere at all) in decades, and there was no publicity whatsoever that I was aware of prior to the launch date, then is it really a surprise that few people have been using it?

NEVER have had a Sunday service since opening.
So we're giving them a Sunday service that nobody uses.
And doubling a weekday service that runs empty most of the day.

 

[stu99]

I can only comment that trains to Nunthorpe on Sundays are a very recent introduction. We have only just last year had trains to Whitby during the winter on Sundays and I **think** nunthorpe Sunday trains were introduced in the December 2017 timetable change.

Yes I was aware of that , its good that they are Sunday trains to Whitby. Its just because I've been looking since the May timetable was removed to be changed, but couldn't think if these were in before they are deleted or they are new additions.

 

[Starmill]

And doubling a weekday service that runs empty most of the day.

Trains from Pontefract to Leeds do not run empty throughout the day. You are spouting utter nonsense and I've had enough of reading it now.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Trains from Pontefract to Leeds do not run empty throughout the day. You are spouting utter nonsense and I've had enough of reading it now.

Yes they do.

They are very quiet.

 

[nw-sparks]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y29224/2018/05/27/advanced (Carlisle to Whitby)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y29228/2018/05/27/advanced (Carlisle to Nunthorpe)
Are these new additions, for Sundays? or were they not removed?

Both these were added to the database this week.

If you look up a train at Open Rail
e.g. http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/12720753
it will tell you when the schedule was created.

Even better, put the UID (Y29224) into the Advanced Search page to get a history of that train in the timetable.

 

[stu99]

Both these were added to the database this week.

If you look up a train at Open Rail
e.g. http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/train/12720753
it will tell you when the schedule was created.

Even better, put the UID (Y29224) into the Advanced Search page to get a history of that train in the timetable.

Cheers and that is very helpful, think I'll be checking that every week, to see if more additions are added.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Could you guys maybe start up a Mirfield thread if you want to discuss it in such depth?

Seconded.

 

[yorksrob]

The current service to Westgate connects well. (~6 min's)
What other connection is there?
Castleford to Sheffield is a direct.
Castlford to Knottingley is a direct service.
Castleford to Leeds is a direct service.

The current service to where connects well ? To Westgate and Huddersfield it leaves a 50min + gap through most of the day.

Sometimes if the Westgate train's late and I run through the subway, I can just about catch it.

 

[Marton]

If the Castleton bridge is fixed. It seems a day to day postponement at present. The trapped unit will eventually need servicing and/or fuel.

Great journey in a Pacer

Earplugs for Grosmont for certain.

With luck it will follow the pattern of a now and be a 156, but why plan for a 142?

 

[Deerfold]

You mean *you* can't see what the point is of the changes?

• Double the frequency from Castleford/ Normanton to Wakefield

Obviously everything is now up in the air, but when these were in the system the two trains between Castleford and Wakefield were 5 minutes apart in most hours.

But if it really is the end of the world for Mirfield, maybe GC could be petitioned to re-time or add a service to run through Mirfield earlier to reach London before 09:00?

I wouldn't bother - no-one is keener than GC for GC to run trains arriving in London before 0900, but NR haven't given them any rights to run then.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

The current service to where connects well ? To Westgate and Huddersfield it leaves a 50min + gap through most of the day.

Sometimes if the Westgate train's late and I run through the subway, I can just about catch it.

Odd.

We usually have the Sheffield stopper pass us going south, while we wait for the board coming into Kirkgate from Huddersfield.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Obviously everything is now up in the air, but when these were in the system the two trains between Castleford and Wakefield were 5 minutes apart in most hours.



I wouldn't bother - no-one is keener than GC for GC to run trains arriving in London before 0900, but NR haven't given them any rights to run then.

Thank's for that.

Proof if needed that the rehash is poorly thought out (insert naughty word here).

 

[yorksrob]

Odd.

We usually have the Sheffield stopper pass us going south, while we wait for the board coming into Kirkgate from Huddersfield.

Indeed, but the train lays over outside Westgate for quite a while.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Indeed, but the train lays over outside Westgate for quite a while.

Sorry, I thought that's where you wanted to be.

Yes, it does "layover" a silly amount of time.
If it came back directly, we could have a half hourly service.
Similarly, the Sundays Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield that lays over in Huddersfield for 1 hour and 50 min's. We could have an hourly service with zero extra staff or units. (Why does it sit at Halifax for almost 10 min's too)?

 

[bearhugger]

Yes I was aware of that , its good that they are Sunday trains to Whitby. Its just because I've been looking since the May timetable was removed to be changed, but couldn't think if these were in before they are deleted or they are new additions.

No worries mate . Sorry I couldn’t be of more help.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry, I thought that's where you wanted to be.

Yes, it does "layover" a silly amount of time.
If it came back directly, we could have a half hourly service.
Similarly, the Sundays Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield that lays over in Huddersfield for 1 hour and 50 min's. We could have an hourly service with zero extra staff or units. (Why does it sit at Halifax for almost 10 min's too)?

For tomorrow, a train times from Normanton to Huddersfield:

Normanton Wakefield K Wakefield K Huddersfield
07:04 07:09 07:50 08:17
07:57 08:03 08:49 09:17
08:59 09:04 09:50 10:16
10:00 10:05 10:50 11:17
10:09 11:04 11:50 12:17

If you type Normanton to Wakefield Westgate into NRE, you'll get half hour journeys as its almost always quicker to walk across Wakefield.

 

[PR1Berske]

I have seen the word "Mirfield" so often that it no longer makes sense.

 

[1D53]

I have seen the word "Mirfield" so often that it no longer makes sense.

Never even heard of the place....

 

[TUC]

Sorry, I thought that's where you wanted to be.

Yes, it does "layover" a silly amount of time.
If it came back directly, we could have a half hourly service.
Similarly, the Sundays Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield that lays over in Huddersfield for 1 hour and 50 min's. We could have an hourly service with zero extra staff or units. (Why does it sit at Halifax for almost 10 min's too)?

That will be one of the key tests of whether Northern's timetable recast has bern designed on a properly thought though basis-have they eliminated most of the ridiculously long and wasteful layovers that occur too often at present?

 

[stu99]

No worries mate . Sorry I couldn’t be of more help.

Thanks for the help anyway...No bother

 

[Chester1]

That will be one of the key tests of whether Northern's timetable recast has bern designed on a properly thought though basis-have they eliminated most of the ridiculously long and wasteful layovers that occur too often at present?

It will be tested on how much it improves punctuality by stopping express services getting stuck behind stopping services and by journey time. Northern has few reasons to serve smaller settlements more often than the franchise agreement allows them to.