Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Mathew S]

And when has Northern had any engagement with its customers to talk about the fact that some will lose out and discuss different options, as opposed to pretending it's about massive improvements?

The consultation took place years ago, at the time the franchise agreement was created. That's where all these changes stem from and are set out in detail. Engagement has continued through local authorities, RUGs, PTEs, etc. since and continues to do so.

 

[Mathew S]

I've added a couple of posters added to the Ignored Users list.

Useful little feature that

 

[TUC]

You most certainly can - the 6.40 at 2hr 18mins is not typical as the train runs fast from Westgate to London. Journey times for later trains from Mirfield to London via Kirkgate are:

7.44am - 2hr 51m
8.40am - 2hr 48m
9.40am - 2h 48m
10.40, 11.40, 12.40 to 18.40 - 2hr 47m to 2hr 58m

Journey times via Leeds apart from a couple of early morning trains are 2hr 50m to 2hr 52m.

So sod all difference.

There really is a load of non-factual nonsense being posted on this thread and (others concerning TPE/Northern changes) in the last couple of days, I've added a couple of posters added to the Ignored Users list.

It's the early morning trains that are particularly key to a pre-9 a.m. arrival in London
As for your final comment, it's a pity you can't take simple disagrerment.

 

[TUC]

But you've used an overtaken journey for comparison purposes? Clearly not a fair comparison.

I used NRE to give the nearest equivalents to journeys starting after 0630 on a weekday. If you think that one is an overtaken service, NRE did not show it as such.

 

[TUC]

Northern doesn't have to engage with its customers.

What other businesses regard engagement with their customers as unimportant? Anyone who knows anything about change management knows there is a process to getting and keeping people on board for which to say 'we sent out a document a couple of years ago' simply won't do the job

 

[Mathew S]

As for your final comment, it's a pity you can't take simple disagrerment.

I don't think anyone has a problem with genuine disagreement, but I agree completely with @lejog that a ridiculous amount of "facts" which get posted on here are either a) made up, or b) wrong because people don't bother to use freely available resources to check their information. The issue (and I'm not saying this applies to you) is when posters won't accept that they are wrong despite being presented with genuine facts which prove an alternative position.

 

[northernchris]

It would be more worthy of discussion in this thread if for some reason Northern are no longer going to run a Huddersfield-Castleford service.

Exactly! Huddersfield-Castleford does seem a bit of a random service to operate but I can't see why there is such a big debate on the importance of Mirfield passengers having to travel via Leeds or Manchester for London. Let's not forget there's also a free bus connecting Kirkgate and Westgate which run every 10 minutes, so transferring between the 2 stations is relatively easy

 

[IanXC]

What other businesses regard engagement with their customers as unimportant? Anyone who knows anything about change management knows there is a process to getting and keeping people on board for which to say 'we sent out a document a couple of years ago' simply won't do the job

You appear to have completely missed that Northern is a business with a set of requirements set out by a franchising authority, on which it has no choice other than to deliver if it wishes to avoid breaching its operating agreement.

 

[tbtc]

Exactly! Huddersfield-Castleford does seem a bit of a random service to operate but I can't see why there is such a big debate on the importance of Mirfield passengers having to travel via Leeds or Manchester for London. Let's not forget there's also a free bus connecting Kirkgate and Westgate which run every 10 minutes, so transferring between the 2 stations is relatively easy

Good points.

TBH, if the changes were in the other direction then there'd be people moaning that Castleford - Manchester passengers would now have to change at busy Leeds, rather than enjoying the easier change at Huddersfield that they currently have.

Are there many Castleford - Manchester passengers? I have no idea, but then I doubt that there are a lot of people regularly leaving Mirfield early enough to get to central London before nine in the morning. I think that both of these categories of people would be dwarfed by the number of people who will benefit from a direct hourly service from Fetherstone etc into Leeds (plus a doubling of the Pontefract/ Knottingley service into Leeds). These are important daily markets, rather than the "nice to have" stuff about Mirfield people needing to get into central London before nine in the morning.

Huddersfield to Castleford may seem "random", but the current hourly Huddersfield - Wakefield service is too slow to be run by one DMU (the fourteen miles take half an hour, which is unsustainable for one DMU to cover), so you might as well extend it to somewhere, since you need a second DMU anyway - in which case you can benefit little places like Normanton too.

Huddersfield is scheduled to get a direct London service before long.

Huddersfield is scheduled to get more Leeds services before long (improving connections at Leeds for London services).

Not all Leeds - London services stop at Wakefield - going via Leeds gives connections onto services that an hourly reversal at Kirkgate didn't provide.

Really seems like a lot of fuss about a very small number of passengers inconvenienced during a generally very positive number of changes across the Northern network - but it's always easier to moan about the few people losing out than accept that more people will benefit on a daily basis (e.g. Knottingley/ Pontefract/ Fetherstone to Leeds).

 

[TUC]

You appear to have completely missed that Northern is a business with a set of requirements set out by a franchising authority, on which it has no choice other than to deliver if it wishes to avoid breaching its operating agreement.

I'm well aware of that but would make several points in response:
1. It highlights the fundamental contradiction of the government'' overprescriptive approach to franchising if on the one hand it wants TOCs to be customer-focused and responsive, but on the other hand give no room for plans to be changed if adverse reaction or unintended consequences occur.
2. The reality is that some TOCs by various routes have deviated from franchise committments.
3. I stand to be corrected but I'm not aware that a reduction in service for Mirfueld-Westgate was highlighted by the DfT or Northern in earlier consultations or publicity so it is questionable whether the decision has ever been the subject of public scrutiny.

 

[IanXC]

I'm well aware of that but would make several points in response:
1. It highlights the fundamental contradiction of the government'' overprescriptive approach to franchising if on the one hand it wants TOCs to be customer-focused and responsive, but on the other hand give no room for plans to be changed if adverse reaction or unintended consequences occur.
2. The reality is that some TOCs by various routes have deviated from franchise committments.
3. I stand to be corrected but I'm not aware that a reduction in service for Mirfueld-Westgate was highlighted by the DfT or Northern in earlier consultations or publicity so it is questionable whether the decision has ever been the subject of public scrutiny.

1. DfT choice
2. DfT choice (why would a TOC doing as the DfT highlight services being lost?)
3. DfT choice (although the public consultation they did conduct was very generic and not against specific services such as this, most consultation was with Local Authorities)

And you tell me this is a TOC issue?

 

[johntea]

Castleford to Manchester isn't generally an issue at the moment, considering quite a lot of Castleford to Leeds services arrive on P17 all you have to do is then walk in a straight line to P16! I suppose a Castleford to Huddersfield Northern train may be a slightly less busy experience than a Leeds to Huddersfield Transpenine of course!

I guarantee however as soon as the local media get wind of a new Castleford to Huddersfield service they'll be banging on about trying to get a Castleford to York service for the next several months of course!

 

[TUC]

1. DfT choice
2. DfT choice (why would a TOC doing as the DfT highlight services being lost?)
3. DfT choice (although the public consultation they did conduct was very generic and not against specific services such as this, most consultation was with Local Authorities)

And you tell me this is a TOC issue?

As said, I recognise the DfT's role. The issue is that its not tenable for Northern to take the credit in publicity for the improvements but to deflect any criticism of the detrements as them being a DfT matter. They can't have it both ways.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Thank you

Mirfield is keeping its direct service to London, and will (I think - though we don't know yet since TPE have yet to publish) keep some TPE services to Huddersfield and Leeds.

Which local stations are you saying will lose direct services to the next station? I'm struggling to see how that would result in a fare increase. A point-to-point fare will always be valid via the shortest route, even if that is more convoluted than it would have been previously.

Your point about the services starting further afield and potential reliability/punctuality issues is a valid one, but that was specified by the DfT I'm afraid - nothing to do with Northern.

At the end of the day, though, we come back to the fact that the railway isn't there to serve your needs, or mine, but to provide the best compromise it can that works for as many people as possible. That's always going to mean some people lose out.

Marsden to Slaithwaite. (Most of day)
Batley to Moreley.(Most of day)
Mirfield to Batley. (Down from 2/h to 1)
Dewsbury to Batley (Down from 2/h to 1)
And many others.
Bit difficult as the RTT has disappeared.

Your point about fares is wrong too.

Huddersfield to Wakefield was always far more on Sundays, as there were no direct services (Before GC).

Who's gaining, and who's not?

Castleford isn't.
Mirfield isn't. (wich BTW is a well used interchange too).
TPX Passengers longer journeys on many services.
Huddersfield isn't.
Hull isn't.
Stalybridge isn't.
Number of services Manchester to Leeds, same, NONE faster. Many SLOWER.

I'd say very few gains in total, for many more losses.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You most certainly can - the 6.40 at 2hr 18mins is not typical as the train runs fast from Westgate to London. Journey times for later trains from Mirfield to London via Kirkgate are:

7.44am - 2hr 51m
8.40am - 2hr 48m
9.40am - 2h 48m
10.40, 11.40, 12.40 to 18.40 - 2hr 47m to 2hr 58m

Journey times via Leeds apart from a couple of early morning trains are 2hr 50m to 2hr 52m.

So sod all difference.

There really is a load of non-factual nonsense being posted on this thread and (others concerning TPE/Northern changes) in the last couple of days, I've added a couple of posters added to the Ignored Users list.

I see you're deliberately missing the point.
(That's probably why you're blocking people).

Fact is, a very well used service is being changed to one with very little likelihood of through journeys.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

It's the early morning trains that are particularly key to a pre-9 a.m. arrival in London
As for your final comment, it's a pity you can't take simple disagrerment.

Hasn't got an argument, so ignores reality.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I'm well aware of that but would make several points in response:
1. It highlights the fundamental contradiction of the government'' overprescriptive approach to franchising if on the one hand it wants TOCs to be customer-focused and responsive, but on the other hand give no room for plans to be changed if adverse reaction or unintended consequences occur.
2. The reality is that some TOCs by various routes have deviated from franchise committments.
3. I stand to be corrected but I'm not aware that a reduction in service for Mirfueld-Westgate was highlighted by the DfT or Northern in earlier consultations or publicity so it is questionable whether the decision has ever been the subject of public scrutiny.

Absolutely.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Because most people who live in the Huddersfield area don't live in the centre of Huddersfield, which is a pain to get into, and an even bigger pain to park in for long periods, they will likely find Mirfield an easy station to get trains from, and for many it will be their closest with parking. I can't exactly see many walking or getting the bus to it from the Huddersfield area (they might prefer Deighton), but there's plenty that do drive there. As well as Huddersfield it's convenient for many of the Spen valley towns like Cleckheaton, and Heckmondwike because fares and parking are cheaper than from Dewsbury.

I've no doubt there's a good many that prefer to travel via Westgate rather than Leeds because, unlike the vast majority on this forum, they don't travel by train very often and find the prospect of negotiating an unfamiliar, very large station like Leeds quite intimidating, especially with luggage, and if they have to change prefer a much smaller station like Westgate with just two platforms, compared to the 17 of Leeds. Yes, East Coast might normally only use half a dozen platforms, but that's still six times the number they use from Westgate. Try to make them use a station they feel uncomfortable using to change trains, or introduce another change of trains when they're only just happy with the one they have and one way or another they will swap rails for roads.

True, Mirfield has Grand Central, but I bet there's plenty who have suffered one being cancelled throwing them into a panic about what to do next when the next GC might be in 2.5 hours, or the day after. Given they're likely to be infrequent travellers they're not likely to find being told they can go to Wakefield or Leeds and travel via East Coast very reassuring. They likely to either just say they can't be bothered again or that they might as well have planned that, and go with the familiar and high frequency.

Blooming excellent post.

 

[yorksrob]

Castleford to Manchester isn't generally an issue at the moment, considering quite a lot of Castleford to Leeds services arrive on P17 all you have to do is then walk in a straight line to P16! I suppose a Castleford to Huddersfield Northern train may be a slightly less busy experience than a Leeds to Huddersfield Transpenine of course!

I guarantee however as soon as the local media get wind of a new Castleford to Huddersfield service they'll be banging on about trying to get a Castleford to York service for the next several months of course!

Ooh yes, now that would be handy. It does seem to take a long time to get from Normanton to York. Personally speaking, I travel to York and Huddersfield quite regularly, however I probably go to York a bit more often.

Of course, all of this would be a lot easier if York were part of the WYPTE as they should be. I understand that a previous Council in York had built up funds to do so, but the current lot abandoned those plans.

To expand on your earlier point, I often use the Wakefield to Huddersfield direct service because it is less overcrowded than TPE and less of a detour than going via Leeds. Unfortunately this often involves bussing it between Wakefield and Normanton because the connection is so poor - 50+ minutes.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I know. Facts like the fact that Mirfield to London has direct trains which similar sized towns elsewhere in the county don't have. Facts like the fact that people using Featherstone want a direct train to Leeds. Or facts like the fact that people from Castleford and Normanton travel to Huddersfield. Facts like the fact that these things are all franchise commitments.

If you want to continue to ignore everything I've said and complain about a very peripheral issue that is not supported by facts (because the timetable isn't available yet) then I would suggest you created a dedicated thread to discuss issues for Mirfield to London passengers excluding those who use Grand Central services.

Huddersfield - Wakefield (WG) 1,000's p/w. (Due to advice, and traveling to Kings Cross, Birmingham and West Country for example).
Huddersfield - Castleford 10's p/w. (probably less). (I asked at the Ticket office in Huddersfield last night).

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I know. Facts like the fact that Mirfield to London has direct trains which similar sized towns elsewhere in the county don't have. Facts like the fact that people using Featherstone want a direct train to Leeds. Or facts like the fact that people from Castleford and Normanton travel to Huddersfield. Facts like the fact that these things are all franchise commitments.

If you want to continue to ignore everything I've said and complain about a very peripheral issue that is not supported by facts (because the timetable isn't available yet) then I would suggest you created a dedicated thread to discuss issues for Mirfield to London passengers excluding those who use Grand Central services.

Your opinion about the people of Featherstone wanting direct Trains to London is shot to bits by the fact that nearby Pontefract had a far better direct service, but in the main now has lost it, due to the fact NOBODY USES IT.

As for ignoring what you say.
Plenty of other posters have shown you've no idea what you're talking about.
You've obviously not the first clue as to how busy Mirfield is.
It's a well used interchange, railhead for dozens of towns an villages.
Has hundreds of passengers with season tickets for London, (not GC specific).

 

[Andrew Nelson]

The consultation took place years ago, at the time the franchise agreement was created. That's where all these changes stem from and are set out in detail. Engagement has continued through local authorities, RUGs, PTEs, etc. since and continues to do so.

Really?

Last consultation I went to, they said there were never any actual plans to electrify the Trans-Pennine route.
Therefore it hasn't been put on hold, let alone cancelled, as it never existed in the first place.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

To expand on your earlier point, I often use the Wakefield to Huddersfield direct service because it is less overcrowded than TPE and less of a detour than going via Leeds. Unfortunately this often involves bussing it between Wakefield and Normanton because the connection is so poor - 50+ minutes.

Well, at least one person in the County will be happy.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, at least one person in the County will be happy.

Indeed, although as I mentioned earlier, I would be equally happy with a decent connection.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Indeed, although as I mentioned earlier, I would be equally happy with a decent connection.

At peak times, don't the Nottingham / Sheffield fasts stop there?

As for the recast....
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the whole thing has been poorly thought out.

 

[yorksrob]

At peak times, don't the Nottingham / Sheffield fasts stop there?

As for the recast....
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the whole thing has been poorly thought out.

Two in the morning and one in the evening stop there, which does provide a much needed capacity boost. What it doesn't provide is a fit for purpose clockface timetable of the sort that smaller stations such as Wombwell and Elsecar will have. It also doesn't provide decent connections with the direct Wakefield - Huddersfield service.

Oh, and those services also don't stop on Saturdays, so useful connections to trains such as the early Leeds - Scotland EC service aren't available on a day when people are most likely to use it.

It's also worth noting that the evening service is at 17:05, which isn't particularly convenient for many office workers.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Really?
Last consultation I went to, they said there were never any actual plans to electrify the Trans-Pennine route.
Therefore it hasn't been put on hold, let alone cancelled, as it never existed in the first place.

It's easy enough to find statements in Parliament committing TP electrification (subject to business case), and the various subsequent reviews of options.
It's true enough Network Rail never took their plans to Grip 3, which is viewed as their commitment, but they did produce milestones.
They certainly spent money on it and raised bridges east of Leeds for it, before being told to stop.

From a distance, I'd add that DfT has to balance the needs of local and long distance passengers, and can't satisfy them all.
Every extra stop adds to journey time and decreases the overall attraction of the through service.
TPE is supposed to be an inter-city TOC.
Rail North (based in Leeds) is the body who determines things like stopping patterns in the new franchise.
But then NR can wipe out the best laid plans by not being able to produce the necessary paths.

 

[northwichcat]

1. DfT choice
2. DfT choice (why would a TOC doing as the DfT highlight services being lost?)
3. DfT choice (although the public consultation they did conduct was very generic and not against specific services such as this, most consultation was with Local Authorities)

Don't forget Rail North were involved in the process of choosing service patterns for the franchise spec and Metro are one of the most powerful bodies on the Rail North board (if Metro and TfGM agree on something, it would need almost everyone else to be against it to stop it going through.)

 

[northwichcat]

Really?

Last consultation I went to, they said there were never any actual plans to electrify the Trans-Pennine route.
Therefore it hasn't been put on hold, let alone cancelled, as it never existed in the first place.

You must have missed the consultations on the new franchises in 2014 then: https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...hern-and-transpennine-express-rail-franchises

By 2014 not only had Manchester to York electrification been announced but Rail North had announced their priorities for future electrification once Manchester to York was wired. There were also further local consultations following the franchise wide one.

So it sounds like you didn't express your opinion during the public consultation and you're unhappy with the result. That's a bit like saying you don't like the government but you don't vote in elections. :roll:

 

[YorkshireBear]

Wow. An impressive three page read there.

Every discussion about hs2 descends into people in the north dont all want to go to london, improve local services. But here we are argueing about a lack of journey oppurtunity from mirfield to London and that the new local services aren't worth it.

Proof that the rail industry will never win because as a country most passengers fail to see the need beyond their own.