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Your opinions on Vladimir Putin?

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Bevan Price

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Exactly, and well said, it amazes me just how many people don`t appear to have a clue whats going on around them and accept everything they read in the media and distorted truths.

Yes - some people seem to believe every word they read in the Torygraph, Scum, etc.

Back to Mr Putin. Whether or not he ordered the poisonings, it is a bit laughable for UK to issue an "ultimatum" to the Russians. Some in the UK Establishment & Tory party need to recognise that the situation has changed since we could send a gunboat to sort out "those naughty foreigners". We are a smallish country and are no longer a major world power. At the moment, we don't even have any working aircraft carriers -- and even when the planned carriers are finished, they could be quickly disabled by a serious missile attack.

We needed to be more subtle - maybe invite Russia to help us find the culprits - and let the world judge them if/when they declined to help.
 
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AlterEgo

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Yes - some people seem to believe every word they read in the Torygraph, Scum, etc.

The mainstream press often disappoints but it’s better to get your news from there than from internet crackpots.

We needed to be more subtle - maybe invite Russia to help us find the culprits - and let the world judge them if/when they declined to help.

This is almost what May has done. She has invited Russia to explain the incident. Either the Russian state has committed this act, or a nerve agent it manufactured has fallen into the wrong hands. Russia has been asked which of these it is. Russia has not complied. Therefore Russia is being judged by the world.

Russia wants to be judged by the world so there are some short- to medium-term negative consequences for Russia, so its president can carry on being a nationalist patriarch, and claim to be delivering protection by standing up to “bullies”.
 

Bevan Price

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The mainstream press often disappoints but it’s better to get your news from there than from internet crackpots.

.

I don't read social media like twitbook, etc. But I think the news from BBC, ITN, etc. is generally more reliable - and politically unbiased - that what you find in many newspapers.
 

AlterEgo

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I don't read social media like twitbook, etc. But I think the news from BBC, ITN, etc. is generally more reliable - and politically unbiased - that what you find in many newspapers.

BBC is generally where I start and I don’t even read traditional newspapers any more to be honest. Been years since I did.
 

muz379

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Russia has not complied. Therefore Russia is being judged by the world.
The British ambassador in Moscow was summoned to the Foreign Ministry and told to convey a message to the UK government that Russia denies the allegations , and could not respond any further until a sample of the agent be provided . It also requested access to the current information in the investigation because it involved a Russian citizen .

I dont know about anyone else but these seem like perfectly reasonable requests to me .

The UK's message sent through the Russian ambassador in the UK was that Russia had until midnight to either admit that it had carried out the attack , or admit that it had a security breach .

They Denied the attack was carried out by Russia .

Asking for a sample of the agent alleged to have been used was the next logical step to try and identify if it had been a security breach .

What is being alleged of Russia by the UK is a very serious breach of international law a 12 hour ultimatum is really not appropriate anyway .
 

bussnapperwm

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I don't read social media like twitbook, etc. But I think the news from BBC, ITN, etc. is generally more reliable - and politically unbiased - that what you find in many newspapers.

BBC? Unbiased? You are having a laugh.

I usually use Al Jazeera, RT & Euronews before looking at BBC News
 

AlterEgo

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BBC? Unbiased? You are having a laugh.

I usually use Al Jazeera, RT & Euronews before looking at BBC News

That’s a joke right - you trust those more than the BBC? What makes you think they are less biased?

Al Jazeera is owned by the Qatari government, a small Islamic monarchy with serious diplomatic issues in its local neighbourhood.

Russia Today is funded by the Russian government. ‘Nuff said.

Don’t know much about Euronews.

The BBC does have some issues with bias and balance but to suggest Al Jazeera and Russia Today are worth checking out before the Beeb seems a bit mad to me!
 

shredder1

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Yes - some people seem to believe every word they read in the Torygraph, Scum, etc.

Back to Mr Putin. Whether or not he ordered the poisonings, it is a bit laughable for UK to issue an "ultimatum" to the Russians. Some in the UK Establishment & Tory party need to recognise that the situation has changed since we could send a gunboat to sort out "those naughty foreigners". We are a smallish country and are no longer a major world power. At the moment, we don't even have any working aircraft carriers -- and even when the planned carriers are finished, they could be quickly disabled by a serious missile attack.

We needed to be more subtle - maybe invite Russia to help us find the culprits - and let the world judge them if/when they declined to help.

That`s a very sensible way forward.
 

Monty

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Yes - some people seem to believe every word they read in the Torygraph, Scum, etc.

That's no different to the people who believe everything they read from 'independent' sources and fringe websites. It's my opinion that the general public need a greater understanding of geopolitics.

Back to Mr Putin. Whether or not he ordered the poisonings, it is a bit laughable for UK to issue an "ultimatum" to the Russians. Some in the UK Establishment & Tory party need to recognise that the situation has changed since we could send a gunboat to sort out "those naughty foreigners".

We may not be the great power we once were, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stand up to bullies. Russia isn't that much of a power either, yes its military is larger but their border is much larger than ours too. Most of their infrastructure is crumbling and many of their pilots don't get the flight ours they need (hence the high crash rate every time the Russian AF decided to ramp up training for a short period of time).

We are a smallish country and are no longer a major world power. At the moment, we don't even have any working aircraft carriers -- and even when the planned carriers are finished, they could be quickly disabled by a serious missile attack.

Technically neither do the Russians :lol:, their sole carrier is in a right old state and needs to be constantly escorted by an ocean going tug in case the vessels notoriously unreliable steam turbines breakdown. The ship is currently laid up in port awaiting for the Russian defence ministry to cough up the money for a major refit. Her current condition is beyond deplorable and she is a nightmare for the ships company to live on.

I also think you underestimate the effectiveness of anti missile technology, systems like Ageis and Sea Viper have in all practical terms rendered the anti ship missile obsolete. Which is why the Americans and Chinese are investing heavily in rail guns. At the moment the real threat to a large warship is the submarine and has been for a long time.
 

St Rollox

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I'm sure the England fans will have a great time in Russia.
I'm really looking forward to watching it.
 

Cowley

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I'm sure the England fans will have a great time in Russia.
I'm really looking forward to watching it.
It’s going to be horrendous. There’s no way I’d go over there to watch it in the current climate.
 

DarloRich

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The naivety of many posters ( and the downright crackpotism of some) is very worrying. It is this credulity and lack of critical thinking that networks like RT play on. Do some research. You seem unable to recognise bias and propaganda when you lap it up and regurgitate it.

You are welcome to hold your own opinion but the balance of probabilities suggests the Russians were behind this.

Don’t know much about Euronews.

Owned by an Egyptian now. Allegations of bias, leaning towards oppressive regimes, pro Russian, questionable editorial standards and anti western

They Denied the attack was carried out by Russia .

Asking for a sample of the agent alleged to have been used was the next logical step to try and identify if it had been a security breach .

What is being alleged of Russia by the UK is a very serious breach of international law a 12 hour ultimatum is really not appropriate anyway .

But there wont be a sample as such ( and they know that) - there will be analysis of the residue and extracts taken form the victims and their environment. There wont be a vial of of some luminous green liquid like in the Rock! The request for a sample is merely a ruse to deflect attention and potentially unearth some research methods.

Yes - some people seem to believe every word they read in the Torygraph, Scum, etc.

Back to Mr Putin. Whether or not he ordered the poisonings, it is a bit laughable for UK to issue an "ultimatum" to the Russians. Some in the UK Establishment & Tory party need to recognise that the situation has changed since we could send a gunboat to sort out "those naughty foreigners". We are a smallish country and are no longer a major world power. At the moment, we don't even have any working aircraft carriers -- and even when the planned carriers are finished, they could be quickly disabled by a serious missile attack.

We needed to be more subtle - maybe invite Russia to help us find the culprits - and let the world judge them if/when they declined to help.

An attack was carried out on people on UK soil using a nerve agent and you, like Mr Corbyn, seem to want to invite the Russians round for a cup of camomile tea and a chat. You want evidence that wont be forthcoming so that can be used an an excuse for inactivity. Why are you bothered about this disgraceful attack?

BTW thew world has judged Russia. The PM offered them a chance to explain. They refused and tried to obfuscate, deflect and deny.
 

northwichcat

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I think what is even more scary is that Russia could be worse without Putin

Can someone explain how the Russian presidency works? They seem to have 6 year terms, Putin did two terms, stood down for one term and then become president again. Is there a rule saying they can serve more than two terms but not more than two consecutive terms?

Looking at the candidates for the next election you have a mix of right wing, far right and communist candidates (all old men) plus one female candidate for a relatively new Civic Initiative party which seems to have similarities to En Marche.
 

DarloRich

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Can someone explain how the Russian presidency works? They seem to have 6 year terms, Putin did two terms, stood down for one term and then become president again. Is there a rule saying they can serve more than two terms but not more than two consecutive terms?

I thought it was 3 consecutive terms that was prohibited
 

shredder1

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I fear it's going to be an ugly, ugly summer.

Such a shame really that football seems to bring the worst out of people at times, on a personal basis I`ve found the Russian`s I`ve met over the years have been fine, people are people, some good and some bad, most people are decent though and just want to get on with life and share common interests.
 

muz379

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But there wont be a sample as such ( and they know that) - there will be analysis of the residue and extracts taken form the victims and their environment. There wont be a vial of of some luminous green liquid like in the Rock! The request for a sample is merely a ruse to deflect attention and potentially unearth some research methods.
There has been enough of a "sample" to ascertain exactly the type of agents used . I did not for one minute envisage that there would be a vial of some luminous green liquid so you can cut the patronizing tone on that one thanks . But it is clear that we have carried out an analysis of some material and come to the conclusion that an agent of the type developed by and previously used by the USSR was present .

BTW thew world has judged Russia. The PM offered them a chance to explain. They refused and tried to obfuscate, deflect and deny.

They did not refuse . They responded through the same diplomatic channels we addressed the accusation . They summoned the UK ambassador in Moscow .Explained that they deny any involvement and to help any further would need access to the samples used to determine the type of agents used .

Im sorry but I maintain that a 12 hour deadline is completely unreasonable given how serious the accusation is .


Im not a big fan of the regime in Moscow . But we have jumped the gun just a little bit expelling a load of diplomats . No doubt there will be an equal reaction in Moscow and we will have lost even more intelligence gathering capability over there .
 
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DarloRich

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There has been enough of a "sample" to ascertain exactly the type of agents used . I did not for one minute envisage that there would be a vial of some luminous green liquid so you can cut the patronizing tone on that one thanks . But it is clear that we have carried out an analysis of some material and come to the conclusion that an agent of the type developed by and previously used by the USSR was present .

An now the biased evil BBC say that some from of sample is to be sent to Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons for scrutiny. Will their word be acceptable evidence? As for patronizing it seems that is exactly the evidence many people seem to want. It doesn't exist. What evidence DO you want? Explain it to me. What would satisfy you?

They did not refuse . They responded through the same diplomatic channels we addressed the accusation . They summoned the UK ambassador in Moscow .Explained that they deny any involvement and to help any further would need access to the samples used to determine the type of agents used .

Im sorry but I maintain that a 12 hour deadline is completely unreasonable given how serious the accusation is .


Im not a big fan of the regime in Moscow . But we have jumped the gun just a little bit expelling a load of diplomats . No doubt there will be an equal reaction in Moscow and we will have lost even more intelligence gathering capability over there .

I don't wish to be accused of being patronizing but I think your views are touchingly naive. There wont be any evidence. That's kind of the point of an intelligence operation. Even if the Russians were presented with incontrovertible evidence they would just use their media outlets and their useful friends feeding off them to deny everything and point to a conspiracy against them.

Why aren't you worried and angry about the violation of our sovereignty and the attempted murder of several people with an dangerous and potentially widely deadly toxin? You are welcome to believe the Russians are entirely innocent and wronged by an evil Western MSM if you like. I wont be joining you. The balance of probabilities points to Russia.
 

muz379

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An now the biased evil BBC say that some from of sample is to be sent to Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons for scrutiny.
Ive not once suggested the BBC is biassed or evil . Once again just frankly patronizing in absence of logical arguments .

Yes their word will obviously carry some weight as to the type of agent . It still would not point to the exact origin of the agent however , but this begs the question . Why was this not done before we started expelling Russian diplomats and briefing our media that Russia was responsible ?



Why aren't you worried and angry about the violation of our sovereignty and the attempted murder of several people with an dangerous and potentially widely deadly toxin? You are welcome to believe the Russians are entirely innocent and wronged by an evil Western MSM if you like. I wont be joining you. The balance of probabilities points to Russia.
Oh I am concerned about the use of chemical weapons in the UK . And recognise the clear violation of our sovereignty .

But I also understand the gravity of the accusations being made here under international law . And frankly 12 hour ultimatums and unilateral action are not the correct way to behave when making such substantial claims . You need to be clear who it is that has violated that sovereignty before pointing the finger .

None of us will ever get to see all the evidence , much of it will be classified . But the information that is in the public domain is not overwhelmingly concrete , and things like our submission of the sample to the OPCW after deciding it was definitely sanctioned by Russia seems incredibly lax .



The balance of probabilities points to Russia.
And herin lies my problem with your argument

The balance of probabilities is not the correct burden of proof to apply when making claims that another country has breached several international conventions around the production and use of chemical weapons . And has grossly violated our sovereignty and attempted to murder one of its own citizens .

I really hope that the body of classified evidence is being assessed to a more rigerous standard than just more likely than not because otherwise that could be rather embarrassing for us as a nation .
 

DarloRich

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Indeed it does, but that isn't the same as incontrovertible evidence, is it? Let's see the evidence before we start throwing our (very diminished) weight around.

goodness me - there will never be incontrovertible evidence! Your ( and Corbyns) plan seems to be to hold out for something you know doesn't exist in the hope that you will have to do nothing. Meanwhile 3 people are in intensive care having being poisoned by a potentially deadly toxin!

Yes their word will obviously carry some weight as to the type of agent . It still would not point to the exact origin of the agent however , but this begs the question . Why was this not done before we started expelling Russian diplomats and briefing our media that Russia was responsible ?

because there must be proof that the government hold that they are not at liberty to disclose. Otherwise there IS a vast conspiracy against Russia. Why would that be the case? Who else but a nation state would have the skills needed and access to the materials required to deliver this attack? I know that the Iraq "dodgy dosier" has polluted any government statement/information but I can not believe the government would take such action without cause.

None of us will ever get to see all the evidence , much of it will be classified . But the information that is in the public domain is not overwhelmingly concrete , and things like our submission of the sample to the OPCW after deciding it was definitely sanctioned by Russia seems incredibly lax .

To be clear: you don't know what type of evidence you want to see but want to see it? The OPCW ( No i hadn't heard of them either!) are not, by the looks of it, a policing/criminal investigatory organisation. It is suggested that the UK leads the world in the identification and classification of biological, radiological, chemical & nerve agents. Perhaps we have systems, tools and processes that we don't want to disclose. Perhaps we have our own or friendly spies who have provided information. As i said i cant believe the government would seek to antagonise a much large and more paranoid country without good cause. What would be the point? What could we hope to achieve?

The balance of probabilities is not the correct burden of proof to apply when making claims that another country has breached several international conventions around the production and use of chemical weapons . And has grossly violated our sovereignty and attempted to murder one of its own citizens .

I really hope that the body of classified evidence is being assessed to a more rigerous standard than just more likely than not because otherwise that could be rather embarrassing for us as a nation

I doubt it is! The quality of evidence available will never satisfy the test of reasonable doubt. What would your response be if you didn't have that level of evidence? Do nothing? Let it happen again? This isnt the first time someone with links to the Kremlin has been attacked on British soil. Surely we have to do something to make the point that this is unacceptable?

( i would link to the Channel 4 fact check site on this point but it seems to be down !)
 
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AlterEgo

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The whole point of this is being missed by some people. All this is, is a game, being played by Russia.

1) Putin has a need to provoke Western states into what he can spin as a hostile stance, to bolster his image during an election year.

2) Easy way to do that is attempt to kill an existing political enemy in a NATO member state. Russia has the resources to do this.

3) Ensure that the attempt is egregious and obvious. Don't use sarin or anything like that - use a Russian nerve agent, so it can be obvious Russia is involved.

4) Hopefully for Russia, the West reacts and gives Putin the political capital he requires, by doing things like expelling diplomats and imposing sanctions.

If Putin does not get the reaction he needs from the West, he will commit further aggressions. Therefore everyone is acting in accordance with the "plan".

As far as due process goes, in these circumstances there is no such established protocol. This is not a criminal trial.
 

northwichcat

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The whole point of this is being missed by some people. All this is, is a game, being played by Russia.

1) Putin has a need to provoke Western states into what he can spin as a hostile stance, to bolster his image during an election year.

2) Easy way to do that is attempt to kill an existing political enemy in a NATO member state. Russia has the resources to do this.

3) Ensure that the attempt is egregious and obvious. Don't use sarin or anything like that - use a Russian nerve agent, so it can be obvious Russia is involved.

4) Hopefully for Russia, the West reacts and gives Putin the political capital he requires, by doing things like expelling diplomats and imposing sanctions.

If Putin does not get the reaction he needs from the West, he will commit further aggressions. Therefore everyone is acting in accordance with the "plan".

As far as due process goes, in these circumstances there is no such established protocol. This is not a criminal trial.

And over in the US

The US has imposed sanctions on 19 Russians, accusing them of interference in the 2016 US election and alleged cyber-attacks.

They include 13 individuals charged last month by Justice Department Special Counsel Robert Mueller.

Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin accused the Russians of "destructive cyber-attacks, and intrusions targeting critical infrastructure".

He said the sanctions would target "ongoing nefarious attacks" by Russia.

The measures are being described in Washington as the strongest action taken by the Trump administration thus far against Moscow.

Russia says it has already begun drawing up counter-measures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43419809
 

AlterEgo

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Meanwhile, I bet Putin’s opinion poll ratings are rising.

Edit: do they even have those in Russia?
 

greyman42

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But is also the only option we can, realistically, take.

Corbyn missed the point yesterday with his idea that we have a bit of a chat about it. He seems unwilling to attack Russia or Putin verbally. His response is dressed up in his usual vague wibbling about international communities/institutions (while knowing full well Russia would block any sanction within those organisations - cf Syria) but one wonders why he wont even criticise them. There was an attack on someone on UK soil with nerve agents and he doesn't seem worried.

He is hammering a point about Russian cash sloshing into Tory coffers but I don't think this is best time to do so. It might play well with the clown army but not with the wider public who are, rightly, more worried about nerve agent attacks within the UK!

Also I am sure Corbyn appeared on RT in the past. I hope he gives back the cash. Lets see if he supports the freezing of Russian state assets.
Corbyn is a disgrace. How anyone would vote for him to become Prime Minister is beyond me.
 

birchesgreen

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Corbyn is adept at making his own traps and getting caught in them.

However (like Trump) he also seems to have an amazing ability to get away with so much and not lose (that much) popularity. We live in mysterious times.
 

headshot119

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Corbyn is adept at making his own traps and getting caught in them.

However (like Trump) he also seems to have an amazing ability to get away with so much and not lose (that much) popularity. We live in mysterious times.

My bold is the best comment I've read on the forum in a while!
 

muz379

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because there must be proof that the government hold that they are not at liberty to disclose
I accept that this could be the case . I just hope they do as I said above .
To be clear: you don't know what type of evidence you want to see but want to see it? The OPCW ( No i hadn't heard of them either!) are not, by the looks of it, a policing/criminal investigatory organisation. It is suggested that the UK leads the world in the identification and classification of biological, radiological, chemical & nerve agents. Perhaps we have systems, tools and processes that we don't want to disclose

Its not that I am unclear about the type of evidence I want to see , it is that I accept that there will be evidence that is clearly going to be classified and never sees the light of day . Anyway its not about the evidence I want to see . Its about the due process I want to see followed . What is the point in us being a signatory of an international treaty if we are not then going to follow its provisions in precisely the type of situation it was created to address before unilateral action being taken .

Both us and Russia are signatories to the CWC , to my mind the allegations are serious enough for us to have made a complaint pursuant to the provisions of the CWC . Muddying the waters by making bold statements stating that someone is responsible before the OPCW has had a chance to investigate and without first making representations to the OPCW about this incident is in my view not the best acts of diplomacy .

I know that if someone had accused our government of using chemical weapons and of having undeclared production and stockpiling facilities I would want to see the complaint substantiated and investigated by an independent party before taking the accusations seriously .

The OPCW is a widely regarded organisation that has been in receipt of a nobel peace prize for its work . As mentioned above the convention we are signatory to contains provisions for an investigation and remedies that are applicable following an alleged use of chemical weapons . It has capabilities to investigate use of chemical weapons . And is the body responsible for the administration of the chemical weapons convention . The convention states remedies available for a breach .

I think some people still do not understand the gravity of the accusations that we as a nation are making . The ones that Russia is responsible for this and has violated our sovereignty are serious enough . But under the chemical weapons convention signatories are also bound to declare programs , stockpiles and production facilities . We are making accusations that the types of agents used are a type that Russia has never declared to the OPCW. Indeed the UK's permanent representative to the OPCW has made representations to this effect . We are alleging that they have manufactured and stockpiled this type of agent under programs not declared as they are bound to do by the treaty . This is a very serious breach of the chemical weapons convention and one that could carry more sanctions for Russia .

This is one of the reasons why I would personally question the motivation of the government in Russia for sanctioning this . The type of agent used can be directly linked to them , and more importantly is of a type that Russia has never disclosed as having any stockpiles or production facilities for . If they have as some predict carried this attack out to bolster Putins support in an upcoming domestic election by showing he is not scared or provoking other countries then this was incredibly foolhardy because whilst the identification of this agent as of Russian origin would serve that purpose it would also place it under extreme scrutiny as it indicates a breach of the CWC that people have believed Russia to have been guilty of for years . This will actually damage Russias security capability . And could actually lead to some secrets being exposed .

It was like when the allegation was made that polonium used in the murder of Litvinenko could only have been sourced from state regulated nuclear reactors pointing to Russian involvement . Evidence that was subsequently discredited and a much more accessible source of the substance was identified .

I doubt it is! The quality of evidence available will never satisfy the test of reasonable doubt.
I would suspect it should be . I never indicated that the full beyond reasonable doubt burden be applied . But if the government are going round making statements and taking action on the basis that it is more likely than not then that in my view is wrong .

As far as due process goes, in these circumstances there is no such established protocol. This is not a criminal trial.
To the contrary , the chemical weapons convention has clear guidelines and protocol . See above as well . We are not just saying they are responsible for this attack but are in clear and serious breach of the CWC for not declaring the production of this type of agent .
 
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