Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[Skimble19]

Ok. Will wind my neck in. Just with GTRs track record saying stuff, then getting proved it isn’t true. It is difficult to believe anything they say.

Well, to be honest I can't really argue with that... don't worry the dates we get internally shift all the time too so it's not just external dates!

 

[87015]

Probably because (from what I've been told, from a good source but don't want to guarantee it!) the delay is apparently down to Network Rail and not GTR?

Of course NR can only work with what GTR sent them, and if that is full of pathing issues, or gets chopped and changed you can’t really lay all the blame at NR, fashionable as that is.

 

[ijmad]

A number of Southeastern services seem to have disappeared from RTT this evening.

[Edit] ... the entire Southeastern timetable.

 

[jon0844]

With various engineering work amendments from Network Rail, is it possible Network Rail has requested data isn't put in until there are firm agreements on when there will be further works involving total shutdowns of lines, rail replacement buses etc?

It would make surely sense NOT to put times into timetables and then later say there are no trains due to planned engineering works.

I'm playing devil's advocate here.

 

[Failed Unit]

With various engineering work amendments from Network Rail, is it possible Network Rail has requested data isn't put in until there are firm agreements on when there will be further works involving total shutdowns of lines, rail replacement buses etc?

It would make surely sense NOT to put times into timetables and then later say there are no trains due to planned engineering works.

I'm playing devil's advocate here.

Don’t disagree but my problem is.
1. GTR published the date. They shouldn’t have if it wasn’t certain.
2. The situation we are in now is worse of both worlds. Some loaded some not. How is the normal user supposed to know if they have seen point 1. Not uploading any would surely be better.
3. It is costing customers real money. They can’t book APs to their local station. They either need to book to KX / Stevenage and hope the can continue the journey or watch the cheapest tiers sell out.
Are they and / or network rail not in breach of t-12 now?

 

[700007]

Has anyone clocked how many off peak trains will be going London to Cambridge Post TL?

I was thinking about this and the TL and GN side comes up to 6, with an additional 2 from GA. I may be going crazy here but I feel like I read somewhere that GA is going up to 3 when they redo the timetable. If that's true that brings it up to 9 off peak and even more during the peak.

I recognise that this primarily is probably to cater to those not coming from London but allows them to have a direct train. Is Cambridge going to be the city with the most frequent trains to London by the end of this?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Perhaps worth a different thread, but Guildford must be a candidate.

 

[DaveN]

What is really sad is that the Thameslink Programme as a whole have had a decade to produce this timetable...

 

[causton]

Are they and / or network rail not in breach of t-12 now?

Been reported in a few places that they are temporarily scrapping T-12, with it going to as little as four weeks in some cases!

 

[OwenB]

Been reported in a few places that they are temporarily scrapping T-12, with it going to as little as four weeks in some cases!

Look forward to seeing the new timetables in June..

 

[Bald Rick]

Has anyone clocked how many off peak trains will be going London to Cambridge Post TL?

I was thinking about this and the TL and GN side comes up to 6, with an additional 2 from GA. I may be going crazy here but I feel like I read somewhere that GA is going up to 3 when they redo the timetable. If that's true that brings it up to 9 off peak and even more during the peak.

I recognise that this primarily is probably to cater to those not coming from London but allows them to have a direct train. Is Cambridge going to be the city with the most frequent trains to London by the end of this?

Perhaps worth a different thread, but Guildford must be a candidate.

That depends on how you count them - high peak hour, off peak hour, all day, all week etc. However the city with the most calling trains to London in one peak hour is (I believe) St Albans, with 15, soon to be 16.

What is really sad is that the Thameslink Programme as a whole have had a decade to produce this timetable...

A lot has changed in that decade, not least the specification for long distance services on both the ECML and MML. Also the political willingness to make compromises.

 

[ac6000cw]

Has anyone clocked how many off peak trains will be going London to Cambridge Post TL?

I was thinking about this and the TL and GN side comes up to 6, with an additional 2 from GA. I may be going crazy here but I feel like I read somewhere that GA is going up to 3 when they redo the timetable. If that's true that brings it up to 9 off peak and even more during the peak.

I recognise that this primarily is probably to cater to those not coming from London but allows them to have a direct train. Is Cambridge going to be the city with the most frequent trains to London by the end of this?

Of the current GN and GA services, the vast majority of the off-peak Cambridge-London traffic is carried on the 2 tph GN non-stops - the GN semi-fast and slow trains, and all the GA trains cater mostly for the intermediate traffic. Plus of course Cambridge is an important interchange with services to/from the rest of East Anglia.

As an illustration, on Saturday morning I travelled to London - I was in time to catch the 09:47 non-stop to KGX, but the 12-car train was packed full and standing so (as I wasn't in a hurry, and didn't fancy standing all the way) I opted for the lightly loaded - when it left Cambridge - GA 10:04 (semi-) fast to LST instead...

 

[TheDavibob]

Of the current GN and GA services, the vast majority of the off-peak Cambridge-London traffic is carried on the 2 tph GN non-stops - the GN semi-fast and slow trains, and all the GA trains cater mostly for the intermediate traffic. Plus of course Cambridge is an important interchange with services to/from the rest of East Anglia.

As an illustration, on Saturday morning I travelled to London - I was in time to catch the 09:47 non-stop to KGX, but the 12-car train was packed full and standing so (as I wasn't in a hurry, and didn't fancy standing all the way) I opted for the lightly loaded - when it left Cambridge - GA 10:04 (semi-) fast to LST instead...

Yes, the Liverpool Street trains are barely used for Cambridge-London traffic (though the cheap fares and decent connectivity at Tottenham Hale tempt me from time to time). It will, however, be interesting to see what the Brighton train patronage is like (to London). It will be slower (as it will be quicker even for the Thameslink core to change from Kings Cross to St Pancras) and less comfortable (tables and plugs, I'm not going to bring seats into this) *but* it is direct and shiny. It'll corner the Gatwick market at least, I suspect.

And it is worth noting that Cambridge, like Reading and Brighton, are stations that get a wildly disproportionate amount of patronage for the size of their settlement, a combination of their own commuter belts and their proximity to London, which (cyclically) justifies the frequency of trains.

 

[holmestm]

Cambridge also attracts a significant number of tourists, with the resulting benefits to the economy which is one reason why they run fast non stoppers during the day. I expect there will be significant patronage from Gatwick as well as Eurostar with people with heavy luggage who prefer direct connections over faster services.

 

[Hadders]

Cambridge also attracts a significant number of tourists, with the resulting benefits to the economy which is one reason why they run fast non stoppers during the day. I expect there will be significant patronage from Gatwick as well as Eurostar with people with heavy luggage who prefer direct connections over faster services.

Strangely if going from Cambridge to catch the Eurostar Kings Cross gives level access whereas St Pancras doesn’t!

 

[SPADTrap]

Ashwell and Morden Intl getting a direct London service, seemingly because GTR wanted them fast from Royston but then realised the contract says two stops minimum south of Cambridge on a certain amount of cruisers during the peak.

 

[bramling]

Ashwell and Morden Intl getting a direct London service, seemingly because GTR wanted them fast from Royston but then realised the contract says two stops minimum south of Cambridge on a certain amount of cruisers during the peak.

Yes, and at the same time Letchworth (and Hitchin) lose their established non-stop peak services to and from London. Not a popular move at all.

 

[SPADTrap]

Yes, and at the same time Letchworth (and Hitchin) lose their established non-stop peak services to and from London. Not a popular move at all.

And quite understandably so! What a silly move. I guess their thinking is that Ashwell and Morden will be a door release to doors closed in a few seconds kind of stop, ticking the box but serving little purpose.

 

[GoatSarah]

Yes, the Liverpool Street trains are barely used for Cambridge-London traffic (though the cheap fares and decent connectivity at Tottenham Hale tempt me from time to time)

Off peak tickets are also valid on trains like the 18:37 Liverpool Street to Cambridge service which is GN's evening peak and the train runs semi fast. There's hardly anyone on it past Bishop's Stortford. I use it to get from London to Cambridge a lot.

 

[sefton]

Ashwell and Morden Intl getting a direct London service, seemingly because GTR wanted them fast from Royston but then realised the contract says two stops minimum south of Cambridge on a certain amount of cruisers during the peak.

I always theorised (on no evidence at all) that Ashwell and Morden existed as a stop because someone with significant influence lived there and used that service, as there seemed no commercial reason for it.

 

[holmestm]

I always theorised (on no evidence at all) that Ashwell and Morden existed as a stop because someone with significant influence lived there and used that service, as there seemed no commercial reason for it.

There was a rumour that the fast train from Huntingdon and St Neots developed a temporary halt at Hatfield one year because the son of a certain PM who lived nearby went to college there.

 

[philjo]

It is probably also connected to the other change that many of the peak fast services that currently start at Royston will be starting at Baldock instead. so presumably the Kings Lynn train calling at Ashwell & Morden is intended to make up for this (though obviously currently they always get a seat on the trains starting from Royston!). I think I saw a mention that a couple of the Baldock starters would be adjusted to start back at Royston.

 

[Downthelane]

Isn't the delay to timetable release clearly down to the timetable 'maths' not adding up. With Class 313 trains still in play it simply won't work. The semi-fasts aren't showing as that are routed on the slow lines and the delays that will immediate occur will likely mean most journeys will be liable for delay repay. I predict a further timetable delay now until the 717's are in service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Nothing to do with the 313s, which were always expected to be around until 2019.eveythig to do with the scale fo the change: comfortably the biggest timetable change ever nationwide.

 

[Downthelane]

The reality of the mean failure rate of the 313 is what has caused the issue. Poor planning now undermined by 42 year old stock failing most days.

I disagree, the plan was over optimistic and it's time to think again.

 

[AM9]

Perhaps worth a different thread, but Guildford must be a candidate.

I doubt it:

0700-0800 -
Guildford to Waterloo 0700-0800: 9; Chelmsford to Liverpool St 10; St Albans to St Pancras: 15

between the peaks -
Guildford to Waterloo 1100-1200: 8; Chelmsford to Liverpool St 5; St Albans to St Pancras: 11
Waterloo to Guildford 1100-1200*: 8; Liverpool St to Chelmsford: 5; St Pancras to St Albans: 10
* arrivals times from London origins

1700-1800 -
Waterloo to Guildford 1700-1800: Liverpool St to Chelmsford: 9; St Pancras to St Albans: 15
​

These may be one or two out but you can see where the most frequent services between London area cities are.

 

[Failed Unit]

The reality of the mean failure rate of the 313 is what has caused the issue. Poor planning now undermined by 42 year old stock failing most days.

I disagree, the plan was over optimistic and it's time to think again.

I don’t the 313s are the issue here. I have doubts about the robustness of the service irrespective of what operates in. No wriggle rooms so lots of skip stopping in even the smallest amount of disruption. Unless the dwell times are longer at the ends.

 

[bramling]

I don’t the 313s are the issue here. I have doubts about the robustness of the service irrespective of what operates in. No wriggle rooms so lots of skip stopping in even the smallest amount of disruption. Unless the dwell times are longer at the ends.

Absolutely right. I hear one of the preview services went round at Letchworth today, no doubt a foretaste of what is to come.

Horrible trains which have attracted national media attention, slower journeys, loss of non-stop peak trains at busy stations, terrible reliability. Welcome to Thameslink. Sorry, ThamesLink/. And now the programme can't even deliver what it said it would this May. Unravelling?

 

[AlanFry1]

I doubt it:

0700-0800 -
Guildford to Waterloo 0700-0800: 9; Chelmsford to Liverpool St 10; St Albans to St Pancras: 15

between the peaks -
Guildford to Waterloo 1100-1200: 8; Chelmsford to Liverpool St 5; St Albans to St Pancras: 11
Waterloo to Guildford 1100-1200*: 8; Liverpool St to Chelmsford: 5; St Pancras to St Albans: 10
* arrivals times from London origins

1700-1800 -
Waterloo to Guildford 1700-1800: Liverpool St to Chelmsford: 9; St Pancras to St Albans: 15
​

These may be one or two out but you can see where the most frequent services between London area cities are.

White Hart Lane surely? Only 6tph in the peaks, half of which are cancelled usually, leading to congestion chaos and queues of 100s getting into the station. Guildford really isn't bad at all. I would say Watford Junction, Basildon, Alexandra Palace and Slough suffer badly.

 

[APUK002]

Nothing to do with the 313s, which were always expected to be around until 2019.eveythig to do with the scale fo the change: comfortably the biggest timetable change ever nationwide.

1st 717 is German testing.