My idea: Replace Worcester Foregate with cable car to Shrub Hill

[HowardGWR]

• build a new station West of the River somewhere in the St Johns / Rushwick area (Worcester West) where there is much more space and land

Was there not a station by the LC at St Johns? Looking at SV, some of it seems to be still intact.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

That's certainly one thing we can both agree on, however Foregate nullifies most benefits unless your proposed West station (or some sort of turn back facility that does not necessitate almost empty stock making an excursion to Malvern)

There's always the Butts Branch... http://www.miac.org.uk/butts.html

 

[randyrippley]

Can I suggest that rather than a cable car, a ski-lift is used? Much cheaper as lighter materials can be used, more capacity and less waiting.
Has application anywhere where the station is out of town e.g. linking Yeovil Junction with the town. In fact some short branches could be replaced by ski lifts - e.g. the Morecambe and Windermere lines could be replaced. And just think what use it would have inside towns: the bus routes you could replace with a few cables and chairs.

 

[jimm]

I agree that Foregate is the most convenient of the two for the city centre, however it is not precisely in the centre of town and our proposed gondola would be nearer. Guiding people to take a longer route than they would choose left to their own devices isn't always commercial suicide, just consider a visit to Ikea! I think many problems with Foregate are insoluble within the constraints of its site:

It's a sight more in the centre of the town than Shrub Hill. Why on earth should people coming from Malvern and Hereford have to watch the central area pass by from the viaduct, then get off on to a cable car to go back where they just came from?

• Only two platforms, limiting scope to increase capacity with more trains.

• Too short, limiting capacity to increase capacity with greater train lengths.

• Limited modal interchange opportunity due to lack of a forecourt at Foregate

Shrub Hill isn't exactly replete with platforms either and no one is going to spend money on it with the impending opening of Parkway - which you seem not to wish to acknowledge the existence of, for some reason. And it's not as if Shrub Hill is exactly easy to get to by car or bus from much of the city in order to achieve 'modal interchange' at any time of the day, due to the volume of traffic these days and the less-than-fantastic road network.

I think we need to know more about planned services at Worcester Parkway before we can talk about the future of the two present stations. For example will XC trains stop there? At present XC trains from Birmingham and the north to Bristol and the west run straight through the whole county of Worcestershire without stopping anywhere. Will WMR trains which currently terminate or reverse at Shrub Hill continue to Parkway? Without these trains the only trains calling at Parkway will be the GWR Cotswold Line trains.

The service pattern, at least when the station opens, isn't exactly a secret.

Cotswold Line trains will call on the high-level platform, with XC Birmingham-Cardiff route services calling at the low-level platforms - even if there won't be any space for passengers on them unless someone can wave a magic wand and find more 170s. There will only be one high-level platform, so no chance whatever of WMR trains running there, due to capacity constraints on the single line from Norton Junction.

 

[londiscape]

As the stations are nice and close together, why not a simple catapult and catchnet system?

Sounds simple, but have you factored wind speed and direction? Your catapult would need variable tension, and the catchnet would need to be on, err......rails.

Plenty of variable factors... looks like it would need thorough testing, with a payload larger than the average person, just to make doubly sure it's strong enough.......

Fetchez la vache!

 

[edwin_m]

Plenty of variable factors... looks like it would need thorough testing, with a payload larger than the average person, just to make doubly sure it's strong enough.......

Fetchez la vache!

More likely to be "le cochon".

 

[alistairlees]

More likely to be "le cochon".

This made me laugh out loud.

The idea is nuts anyway, someone should just close the thread.

 

[satisnek]

Would the OP's suggestion, but omitting the station closure, of a cable car connection be helpful?

A quick question, does your fastest connection time include a stop off at the pub?

A bus link would be much cheaper, but I really can't see much demand for it if both stations are to be retained.

As for your second question, erm, no Perhaps I should add that both occasions were Foregate Street to Shrub Hill at around 0800 on a Saturday morning. The second one was last year when the incoming train to Foregate was held at signals for five minutes or so, thus using up my 'margin'. The chargeman at Shrub Hill saw me walk onto the platform just as he was dispatching the train and after a quick phone call to verify my story, arranged for a taxi to take me onto Cheltenham. I'm glad I was able to flick a complimentary email to London Midland before they lost the franchise, having screwed them for several Delay Repays since 2008.

One thing that has crossed my mind is whether it would be possible to squeeze in bay platforms at the eastern end of Foregate Street, which would enable all trains to serve that station, but Shrub Hill would still need to be retained for car parking facilities, etc.

 

[squizzler]

It's a sight more in the centre of the town than Shrub Hill. Why on earth should people coming from Malvern and Hereford have to watch the central area pass by from the viaduct, then get off on to a cable car to go back where they just came from?

Hardly a massive detour: WOF - WOS with flying start is only a minute and allow for the gondola perhaps 5 minutes. Think of the time savings for those on MalWolds (CotsVern?) axis who do not wish to alight and are saved one stop in Worcester.

Shrub Hill isn't exactly replete with platforms either and no one is going to spend money on it with the impending opening of Parkway - which you seem not to wish to acknowledge the existence of, for some reason. And it's not as if Shrub Hill is exactly easy to get to by car or bus from much of the city in order to achieve 'modal interchange' at any time of the day, due to the volume of traffic these days and the less-than-fantastic road network.

I am unsure why we need to "acknowledge the existence of" Parkway in this debate when your post seems to describe it as simply a place where existing trains might in future stop on the Cotswold and XC lines rather than something to immediately cause a massive recast of services around Worcester.

I agree that Shrub Hill is not well tied in with the commercial life of the city as a whole. But why not make this lemon into lemonade? Harnessing the power of railways for urban regeneration, our gondola system would actually connect this area and perhaps kickstart some valuable real estate development. As a nation we need brownfield housing land, right? And why not spend money on the station: a high quality redevelopment of the station itself would be icing on the cake. Perhaps surrounding land price uplift can be harvested for our gondola link?

 

[Harbornite]

No. just no.

 

[Llanigraham]

One thing that has crossed my mind is whether it would be possible to squeeze in bay platforms at the eastern end of Foregate Street, which would enable all trains to serve that station, but Shrub Hill would still need to be retained for car parking facilities, etc.

You would need to build an extension to the embankment and bridges it is on.
<iframe src="https://www.google.com/maps/embed?p...20399917886271!3f180!4f0!5f1.1924812503605782" width="400" height="300" frameborder="0" style="border:0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[HSTEd]

A 3S ropeway is capable of operating in 70mph winds, and can be installed rapidly and at relatively reasonable cost.
Operating speed is up to 8.5m/s with negligible passenger wait times.

See the Koblenz system as an example of what is possible in an urban setting

 

[Bevan Price]

Surely it depends on the question: Are they used adequately? I don't know the area, but given the conditions as I understand them, a station at or near Rushwick (is there space?) with a decent car park allowing quick access from the A4440 ring road would a) enable trains to turnround without blocking Foregate Str (as noted by jhy44) b) be fantastic news for Rushwick itself* and c) serve as a railhead for hundreds of folks in areas to the west of Worcester who could avoid driving into town, or even across to the new Worcester Parkway (again, as implied by jhy44). Sounds an idea well worth investigating to me - certainly better than some cable car supposedly eabling Foregate street to close. Which it wouldn't.

* Did Rushwick use to have a station, back in the days of yore?

From Foregate Street (121m. 12c from Paddington), the next stations were:
Henwick (121m 68c)
Boughton Halt (122:40)
Rushwick (123;07)

 

[The Ham]

A 3S ropeway is capable of operating in 70mph winds, and can be installed rapidly and at relatively reasonable cost.
Operating speed is up to 8.5m/s with negligible passenger wait times.

See the Koblenz system as an example of what is possible in an urban setting

Which when compared with a bus is probably all fairly similar, other than the passenger wait time which could be 14 minutes (4 buses per hour), to have a shorter wait time than that, and depending on the journey time, you could require quite a few buses. Whilst if you assume a cable car every 30 seconds that can house 6 (average loading of 5) and a queue of 50 people is dealt with in 5 minutes

The other thing to bear in mind is that buses are probably more prone to cuts in services as they can just be redeployed somewhere else (possibly even somewhere in the country).

That's not too say that it's a good idea, just I can see why someone is arguing that a cake car could be a useful link between two stations/town centre and a station.

 

[HSTEd]

Which when compared with a bus is probably all fairly similar, other than the passenger wait time which could be 14 minutes (4 buses per hour), to have a shorter wait time than that, and depending on the journey time, you could require quite a few buses. Whilst if you assume a cable car every 30 seconds that can house 6 (average loading of 5) and a queue of 50 people is dealt with in 5 minutes

The other thing to bear in mind is that buses are probably more prone to cuts in services as they can just be redeployed somewhere else (possibly even somewhere in the country).

That's not too say that it's a good idea, just I can see why someone is arguing that a cake car could be a useful link between two stations/town centre and a station.

The Koblenz Rheinseilbahn has a crush-load capacity of 35 per vehicle and a vehicle headway of 35 seconds.

These things really are incredible, the ~1000m Koblenz system cost something like €20m all in.
Which sounds like a lot, but not compared to the normal price of doing things on the railway.

 

[takno]

Hardly a massive detour: WOF - WOS with flying start is only a minute and allow for the gondola perhaps 5 minutes. Think of the time savings for those on MalWolds (CotsVern?) axis who do not wish to alight and are saved one stop in Worcester.



I am unsure why we need to "acknowledge the existence of" Parkway in this debate when your post seems to describe it as simply a place where existing trains might in future stop on the Cotswold and XC lines rather than something to immediately cause a massive recast of services around Worcester.

I agree that Shrub Hill is not well tied in with the commercial life of the city as a whole. But why not make this lemon into lemonade? Harnessing the power of railways for urban regeneration, our gondola system would actually connect this area and perhaps kickstart some valuable real estate development. As a nation we need brownfield housing land, right? And why not spend money on the station: a high quality redevelopment of the station itself would be icing on the cake. Perhaps surrounding land price uplift can be harvested for our gondola link?

Worcestershire parkway isn't really a Worcester station anyway, so I can't see any relevance at all. I've always lived far nearer to Shrub hill anyway, as do a decent proportion of residents. On the upsides, it has parking, it has the old Kay's office block which could make excellent housing, and the dead-on-arrival retail park might as well go over to something useful. It's also only 5 minutes further from the bits of the town centre that anybody would want to visit. Basically shutting foregate Street is the only sensible option. Shove a wee escalator up the hill and really there wouldn't be any objections

 

[squizzler]

Has application anywhere where the station is out of town e.g. linking Yeovil Junction with the town.

Your post might be in jest but you got me thinking (dangerous, that!) and Bristol struck me as a possible candidate. Many of the same issues of non central station, topography and rivers as Worcester. A quick web search brought up this decade old proposal from Atkins

 

[centraltrains]

especially if XC gets trains that are actually able to cope with current demand between Birmingham, Bristol and Cardiff and allow for growth from Worcester Pakrway and extra calls at Ashchurch.

That is a rather big if...

 

[squizzler]

These things really are incredible, the ~1000m Koblenz system cost something like €20m all in.
Which sounds like a lot, but not compared to the normal price of doing things on the railway.

It might be possible to go even cheaper by acquiring a system that has been displaced from a ski resort by a higher capacity one. You might be able to use this to prove the concept on an easy alignment and then when demand outstrips capacity, install the system you wanted in the first pace. Or maybe by that point the station and surrounding area have integrated into the urban fabric and the cablecar can go, its job done.

On the upsides, it has parking, it has the old Kay's office block which could make excellent housing, and the dead-on-arrival retail park might as well go over to something useful. It's also only 5 minutes further from the bits of the town centre that anybody would want to visit. Basically shutting foregate Street is the only sensible option. Shove a wee escalator up the hill and really there wouldn't be any objections

I'm really happy to find a local who agrees and shares my opinion that Shrub Hill is in an area of town that, being close to the city centre, is ripe for regeneration! I am not sure that an escalator on the station approach is enough to release the somewhat landlocked shrub hill environs.

I'm now thinking along the lines of the cable car being part of a major regeneration masterplan for that neighbourhood that would also feature a restored and enhanced station. This would be pump priming to bring in private development capital. The operational benefits to the railway and its passengers of ditching Foregate and making Shrub hill the hub for all services might play second fiddle.

 

[DarloRich]

this is a bizarre and fantastical thread!

 

[squizzler]

this is a bizarre and fantastical thread!

I’ll take that as a compliment. Thank you sir!

 

[MarkyT]

I think closing Foregate Street is a ludicrous idea. Many people coming in from the Hereford direction would be highly inconvenienced by that and it would require any Hereford - Birmingham service to reverse at Shrub Hill if it was the only station in central Worcester. Shrub Hill is slightly less conveniently sited than Foregate Street for pedestrian access to the old city centre, but it is has parking with room for expansion and is more convenient for those travelling to or from the east of the city. There is a fairly well segregated pedestrian link path already along the front of the retail park units, over a small bridge, and leading via St Martin's Gate to the city, but it connects quite poorly with the station and those dated modern buildings encompassed by the access ramp oval are truly dire. Some work to improve this area must be justified at some point both from an aesthetic and access point of view. It is only about 600m from the station front to the city wall. A good wide pedestrian route designed with clear sight-lines and minimised traffic interaction could make such a 10 minute walk 'feel' much less. No cable car required, although a wide enough path could plausibly also accommodate some kind of small ground level autonomous pod connector as well, that could coexist safely with pedestrians and cycles and provide a 'mobility solution' for those who find the distance a challenge.

 

[takno]

I think closing Foregate Street is a ludicrous idea. Many people coming in from the Hereford direction would be highly inconvenienced by that and it would require any Hereford - Birmingham service to reverse at Shrub Hill if it was the only station in central Worcester. Shrub Hill is slightly less conveniently sited than Foregate Street for pedestrian access to the old city centre, but it is has parking with room for expansion and is more convenient for those travelling to or from the east of the city. There is a fairly well segregated pedestrian link path already along the front of the retail park units, over a small bridge, and leading via St Martin's Gate to the city, but it connects quite poorly with the station and those dated modern buildings encompassed by the access ramp oval are truly dire. Some work to improve this area must be justified at some point both from an aesthetic and access point of view. It is only about 600m from the station front to the city wall. A good wide pedestrian route designed with clear sight-lines and minimised traffic interaction could make such a 10 minute walk 'feel' much less. No cable car required, although a wide enough path could plausibly also accommodate some kind of small ground level autonomous pod connector as well, that could coexist safely with pedestrians and cycles and provide a 'mobility solution' for those who find the distance a challenge.

There isn't really a problem to "solve" here. There's plenty of station overall, and all of it is near town. Most connections can be made at station one or the other, and no trains really *have* to reverse. There's a few services where the way things work aren't ideal, but frankly the weird combination of slow and fast trains and split between stations at the Birmingham end is more confusing. The only thing I'd actually change is the way journey planners work - they always make the train ride seem longer by giving you the time to Foregate even if the train spends 10 minutes turning round in Shrub Hill first.

As to renewal, I thought the area and route down to town was better before they "regenerated" it with a faster busier road and an ugly-as-sin retail park in place of the victorian terraces, so I'm not convinced letting them do *more* is a good answer. I've also got a feeling the office block in the grounds is listed

 

[Essan]

Foregate St has a Tesco on one side of it, a Wetherspoon's on the other, and a fast food outlet across the road. Shrubb Hill has none of these. Ergo, FS is by far the more useful station

Seriously, if I come in on a train from Brum that terminates at SH then I usually walk down to FS to catch the Evesham train, rather than hang around in the middle of nowhere ...

 

[tbtc]

There isn't really a problem to "solve" here. There's plenty of station overall, and all of it is near town. Most connections can be made at station one or the other, and no trains really *have* to reverse. There's a few services where the way things work aren't ideal, but frankly the weird combination of slow and fast trains and split between stations at the Birmingham end is more confusing

Whilst I find the idea of closing a city centre station strange, and the idea of cable cars bizarre, there is an interesting discussion to have about Worcester.

There's the old debate between operational simplicity (sending everything to one station) versus taking passengers where they actually want to go (which will often be the station in the city centre).

There's the fact that Worcester is one of the few places in the UK that still seems to have random 1990s timetables, rather than the clockface ones the rest of the country has evolved to enjoy. I can understand places like Kyle of Lochalsh/ Whitby still getting quirky timetables with random gaps but it's surprising how bad the Worcester timetables are (considering that it's a large enough place in the Birmingham "travel to work" area).

So, to try to fill the gaps between the hourly Hereford service and the bi-hourly GWR service, there's a roughly bi-hourly WMT service from Snow Hill (etc) to Malvern. Which means the Shrub Hill - Snow Hill service runs at

• 09:52
• 10:52
• 12:52
• 13:17
• 14:52
• 15:17

(i.e. roughly one train per hour but at a bit of a 30/90 split)

From Foregate Street it's

• 09:03
• 10:16
• 11:16
• 11:51
• 12:16
• 13:51
• 14:16
• 15:33
• 16:13
• 16:34
• 16:47

(i.e. more 30/90 splits but also three trains in around half an hour whilst sometimes nothing in over an hour and a half)

A nice curiosity for people out of town like myself (how do you run a half hour service as far as Malvern plus a half hourly Snow Hill service whilst retaining the through services from Gloucester etc?), but must be a nuisance for people in Worcester unsure of which station to head to - plus there are two stations at the Birmingham end (though at least the services are fairly clockface at this end of the route).

I don't think there's a simple solution (unless paths are found for the New Street - Malvern service to go half hourly ... i.e. half hour Snow Hill to Shrub Hill and half hourly New Street to Foregate Street ... but that relies on paths through Longbridge etc).

 

[takno]

Foregate St has a Tesco on one side of it, a Wetherspoon's on the other, and a fast food outlet across the road. Shrubb Hill has none of these. Ergo, FS is by far the more useful station

Seriously, if I come in on a train from Brum that terminates at SH then I usually walk down to FS to catch the Evesham train, rather than hang around in the middle of nowhere ...

There's always been a buffet at Shrub Hill, which is fine for most of my needs. The pub sadly was one of the things they knocked down to build the retail park. Mind you, the Tesco used to be a useless post office as well. Basically they've spent most of the last 40 years wrecking the Shrub Hill area, but it's still closer for a large chunk of the town and will always have much easier access for cars.

 

[Darkinsider]

deleted

 

[takno]

Get rid of both Foregate Street and Shrub Hill as stations. Protect the stations as i beleive they are listed. Build new station on the triangular. Diesal depot to be relocated opposite Shrubb Hill station with a large multi storey car park on the yard. Have new stations platform faces on the 3 sides of the triangle with 2 sides having 2 platforms. Look at the option to pile drive the sides of the line from the new station to Foregate street to provide a walk way with ticket barriers etc at forgate street to maintain a city centre exit. Lets be honest, If you walked from a new station to foregate street it would probably be consistent with some London Underground walks to the surface. Thus Foregate street is still used. Shrubb Hill would probably be still linked to at least one platform of new station and used as an entrance.

Ignoring the cost, and the need to double the FS-SH line if you're going to stop trains on it, I wonder if the triangle is a bit bigger than you realise...

 

[Darkinsider]

deleted

 

[takno]

Don't need to redouble as such. Foregate street lines would be uni directional with a x junction leading to new station with 2 platforms on london and Birmingham sides. Platforms would be plenty long enough. In fact an excess of space in the middle would be an issue but again stuff could be done with it.

Cost. Never said anything about cost. prohibitive yes, that said, retirement flats or such like in centre of it with seperate access to road below.

So in order to stop the odd person having a ten minute walk from station to station you'd build a station somewhere else which has fairly poor road access *and* isn't anywhere near the middle of town, where the distance between platforms for interchange would be nearly as far as the walk between the stations is currently, and build a multi-storey car park even further away. Meanwhile you'd move a working depot so you could build retirement flats for pensioners who unaccountably want to live in the middle of a station. *And* you would have the old stations mouldering away taking up space anyway because they're listed?

It's a bold idea, but I think it might be worth building it as an OO-scale model first, just to see how it looks.