Your views: should we have first class on trains at all?

[Bletchleyite]

First class on London commuter services is effectively "priority boarding" and should probably be branded as such.

An alternative might be to offer (unmarked) reserved seating in a small area of the train and charge a hefty fee for it.

 

[Polarbear]

An alternative might be to offer (unmarked) reserved seating in a small area of the train and charge a hefty fee for it.

GTR pretty much do that now on Southern & Gat Ex don't they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

GTR pretty much do that now on Southern & Gat Ex don't they?

I more meant where you can specifically reserve it on a given train.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I more meant where you can specifically reserve it on a given train.

As @Polarbear points out, that's pretty much what "first class" is on most of GTR. Having a first class ticket is just a way of increasing your chance of getting a seat: i.e. "priority boarding". Your suggestion is just a different form of the same brand of verbal gymnastics.

 

[tiptoptaff]

You know what? I travel first class when I go with Southern and SouthEastern and such because I like the privacy of the compartment and the higher chance of a seat.

However, I can understand why people think it a waste of valuable space. So if it was down to me I would retain first class on:

Abellio ScotRail
CrossCountry
East Midlands Trains
Gatwick Express
Grand Central
Greater Anglia -
(Stansted Ex. & Norwich IC only)
Heathrow Express
Hull Trains
South Western Railway
(Class 15x and 44x services only)
TransPennine Express
Virgin Trains
Virgin Trains East Coast

Only. But - there would have to be standards.


- 2x1 reclinable seating.

- Window curtains or blinds.

- Complementary drinks and refreshments offered on board.
(Whether these are just snacks, cold food or proper hot meals is at the TOCs discretion)

- Separated from standard class.

No GWR? I'd argue they deserve it more than Gat Ex or HEX

 

[STKKK46]

You know what? I travel first class when I go with Southern and SouthEastern and such because I like the privacy of the compartment and the higher chance of a seat.

However, I can understand why people think it a waste of valuable space. So if it was down to me I would retain first class on:

Abellio ScotRail
CrossCountry
East Midlands Trains
Gatwick Express
Grand Central
Greater Anglia -
(Stansted Ex. & Norwich IC only)
Heathrow Express
Hull Trains
South Western Railway
(Class 15x and 44x services only)
TransPennine Express
Virgin Trains
Virgin Trains East Coast

Only. But - there would have to be standards.


- 2x1 reclinable seating.

- Window curtains or blinds.

- Complementary drinks and refreshments offered on board.
(Whether these are just snacks, cold food or proper hot meals is at the TOCs discretion)

- Separated from standard class.

Someone has already pointed out that GWR should be added to this, but you’re on the right track.

I think overall, it’s a shame the way the country and its railways are run in the fact capacity can no longer be increased at a (relative) drop of a hat. Everything is a case of make do with what you’re got and provide X seats at X times between X and Y. If we could have long platforms where possible (SDO where not) and adjustable sets then it would be great. And this discussion wouldn’t come up every few months. But we can’t!

However unfortunately it is very much a money based game now. Your East/West Coast and GWR could never lose their First Class now, with the extras included (to a point) because it is necessary on long journeys and the demand is there, however I feel the rest could eventually lose their provision because the capacity is just not there!

You’ll be too young to remember the old slam door sets in the southern region (I can only just remember them!) but the First Class on those was fantastic for exactly the reasons you state about private compartments.

The railway has become too important for its own good in this regard, but that’s life, and we should all be thankful wether we have a carriage to ourselves or not that trains are there. Because it would be bloody miserable getting to and from places if they weren’t.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No GWR? I'd argue they deserve it more than Gat Ex or HEX

Oh god. How could I forget? (Embarrassing)

Someone has already pointed out that GWR should be added to this, but you’re on the right track.

I think overall, it’s a shame the way the country and its railways are run in the fact capacity can no longer be increased at a (relative) drop of a hat. Everything is a case of make do with what you’re got and provide X seats at X times between X and Y. If we could have long platforms where possible (SDO where not) and adjustable sets then it would be great. And this discussion wouldn’t come up every few months. But we can’t!

However unfortunately it is very much a money based game now. Your East/West Coast and GWR could never lose their First Class now, with the extras included (to a point) because it is necessary on long journeys and the demand is there, however I feel the rest could eventually lose their provision because the capacity is just not there!

You’ll be too young to remember the old slam door sets in the southern region (I can only just remember them!) but the First Class on those was fantastic for exactly the reasons you state about private compartments.

The railway has become too important for its own good in this regard, but that’s life, and we should all be thankful wether we have a carriage to ourselves or not that trains are there. Because it would be bloody miserable getting to and from places if they weren’t.

I can’t remember British trains from before 2010 sadly, but I have been on a 205 Thumper?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You’ll be too young to remember the old slam door sets in the southern region (I can only just remember them!) but the First Class on those was fantastic for exactly the reasons you state about private compartments.

That takes me back to those far-off days on the Crewe to Manchester line when the Class 304 units were in their original four-coach version with first class accommodation with toilet facilities. The six of us who were regular travellers regarded this compartment as our very own "Club Coach", harking back to days even before I was born, when businessmen had such a real facility with upholstered armchairs travelling into Manchester "To go on 'change'"

 

[MCSHF007]

Not a "PC" thing to say but the biggest advantage of first class travel is surely to reduce the risk of exposure to noisy and unpleasant travelling companions. The extra space and free wifi (where provided) is a bonus. Complimentary food seems (in my experience) to be vastly more important to those travelling on heavily discounted 'Advance' tickets (and out for everything they can get) than to business travellers who would rather work without interruption other than maybe the odd drink here and there .

 

[jon0844]

Not a "PC" thing to say but the biggest advantage of first class travel is surely to reduce the risk of exposure to noisy and unpleasant travelling companions. The extra space and free wifi (where provided) is a bonus. Complimentary food seems (in my experience) to be vastly more important to those travelling on heavily discounted 'Advance' tickets (and out for everything they can get) than to business travellers who would rather work without interruption other than maybe the odd drink here and there .

I think that's a fair point, although you can still be exposed to very unpleasant travelling companions in first class, even if they're generally quieter!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not a "PC" thing to say but the biggest advantage of first class travel is surely to reduce the risk of exposure to noisy and unpleasant travelling companions. The extra space and free wifi (where provided) is a bonus. Complimentary food seems (in my experience) to be vastly more important to those travelling on heavily discounted 'Advance' tickets (and out for everything they can get) than to business travellers who would rather work without interruption other than maybe the odd drink here and there .

The "not PC" part isn't the intolerance of noisy or disruptive passengers... it's that (a) you assume that you'll only encounter loud or obnoxious people in standard class, and (b) the idea that being able to afford first class travel is the only way to avoid this unpleasantness.

In the first case, on the few occasions I have travelled first class I've witnessed some of the most obnoxious behaviour I've ever seen, coupled with an arrogance and sense of entitlement that wouldn't be out of place at a Bullingdon Club meeting. On the second point, the vast majority of other passengers in standard have shown that they (as I hope I do) know how to conduct themselves in public with a perfectly adequate level of respect and decorum.

Also, how is it that if you're a business person (what does that mean anyway? Someone wearing a suit?) the freebies are just a bonus, but if you're on an advance you can't help but "fill your boots"?

If the general public are so intimidating to you perhaps you should go by car or stay at home, lest you get traumatised.

 

[class387]

You know what? I travel first class when I go with Southern and SouthEastern and such because I like the privacy of the compartment

Most Southern and Southeastern trains do not have enclosed first class sections.

 

[47271]

Not a "PC" thing to say but the biggest advantage of first class travel is surely to reduce the risk of exposure to noisy and unpleasant travelling companions. The extra space and free wifi (where provided) is a bonus. Complimentary food seems (in my experience) to be vastly more important to those travelling on heavily discounted 'Advance' tickets (and out for everything they can get) than to business travellers who would rather work without interruption other than maybe the odd drink here and there .

Well, I travel for business most days of the week in either class depending on the operator and time of day and I can tell you that I come across pretty much equal amounts of annoying behaviour in First as I do in Standard. You've obviously never been on an Aberdeen to King's Cross train north of Newcastle!

Speaking for myself, I can generally organise my business travel around advances and can further justify the upgrade on expenses by offsetting food and drink against subsistence claims. But I'm buying the (usually, I'd say one in 20 First advances I buy are cheaper than Standard on the same train) more expensive ticket for extra space, and my company is happy with this if it's kept within sensible bounds.

The world of First Class rail travel isn't as black and white as a lot of people on this thread would like to believe.

 

[xotGD]

Not a "PC" thing to say but the biggest advantage of first class travel is surely to reduce the risk of exposure to noisy and unpleasant travelling companions. The extra space and free wifi (where provided) is a bonus. Complimentary food seems (in my experience) to be vastly more important to those travelling on heavily discounted 'Advance' tickets (and out for everything they can get) than to business travellers who would rather work without interruption other than maybe the odd drink here and there .

The business travellers didn't pay for their tickets and can probably claim the cost of their refreshments back on expenses anyway. Maybe not the G&T, so that is a bonus. If you have paid out of your own pocket of course you want your money's worth - the food and drink isn't complimentary, it is included in the price of your ticket - just like going on an all inclusive holiday.

Also, the idea that business travellers are noses to the grindstone 24/7 is nonsense. Plenty of people who have had an early start for an all day meeting in London just want to relax on the train back home. And when you get groups of colleagues travelling together they usually aren't chatting about work.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Most Southern and Southeastern trains do not have enclosed first class sections.

Well all 171s, 377/4s and 465/9s do anyway.

 

[Spamcan81]

It might also be the size of the person. A 5' skinny person has lots of room to move in a typical Standard seat. A 6' 4", 38" waisted person with "cyclist's legs" (me) doesn't.

Quite so and as I'm of very similar dimensions to your good self, I always look to book 1st Class on long journeys. The extra legroom and wider seats are very welcome. Even with a senior rail card it's not always possible to get what I call an affordable fare so on those occasions I will travel standard but 1st is very much my preference.

 

[anti-pacer]

Having done a 7 day ALR in First Class, I generally loved it. The service, the seating, the food and drink, and the quietness.

I had no issues with noisy passengers at all, and most of my experiences were positive. The problem I have is the large differences between TOC's, even on Intercity type routes. AGA for example offered VERY little, whereas VTEC and VT offered far more. The highlight was the ATW "WAG" train, but I found the South East TOC's very disappointing.

I wouldn't have enjoyed my trip as much in Standard Class, and whenever I travel long distances now, I try to travel First Class if I can and if it's worth it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The world of First Class rail travel isn't as black and white as a lot of people on this thread would like to believe.

Absolutely this. As a self-proclaimed yoghurt-weaving leftie I ought to object to First class on principle, but on the rare occasions I've used it I've enjoyed it. Does that make me a hypocrite or a human being?

My objection is the attitude expressed by some posters on here, that being able to afford first class means you're a better class of person and that we proles in standard should bow down and kiss the feet of the benevolent business people and gentry, whose wealth will one day trickle down to us...

Also the idea that standard class is filled with baying mobs of feral chavs who can smell wealth and want to eat the rich! We don't, despite the above paragraph which I promise is (partially) tongue-in-cheek!

 

[DarloRich]

Absolutely this. As a self-proclaimed yoghurt-weaving leftie I ought to object to First class on principle, but on the rare occasions I've used it I've enjoyed it. Does that make me a hypocrite or a human being?

My objection is the attitude expressed by some posters on here, that being able to afford first class means you're a better class of person and that we proles in standard should bow down and kiss the feet of the benevolent business people and gentry, whose wealth will one day trickle down to us...

Also the idea that standard class is filled with baying mobs of feral chavs who can smell wealth and want to eat the rich! We don't, despite the above paragraph which I promise is (partially) tongue-in-cheek!

I think this sums up, really, my view of the situation as expressed on this board. I also object, vehemently, to the idea that us second class passengers are somehow scum because we don't have access to the railway version of the masons handshake!

Having done a 7 day ALR in First Class, I generally loved it. The service, the seating, the food and drink, and the quietness.

I have done both first and second class ALR and enjoyed them both.

Unlike many posters here I seem to be able to tune out the screaming and braying that many assume to occur in cattle class and enjoy my day out.

 

[Raul_Duke]

I normally find myself in agreement with @DarloRich on most things, but on this occasion it does seem to have an element of “Why should they be allowed to make Ferrari’s when I only want a Fiesta?” about it.

If you take catering out, I doubt 1st costs a TOC that much more.

I remember once watching a documentary about the psychology of marketing.

They discussed why you can buy say a regular coffee for £1.80 and a large for £2.20.

The large doesn’t cost the company an extra 40p, but it means the people who are willing to pay £2.20 for a coffee have option and probably will, whereas more cost conscious people also have their option.

I think there may be an element of this at work here too.

 

[anti-pacer]

I have done both first and second class ALR and enjoyed them both.

Unlike many posters here I seem to be able to tune out the screaming and braying that many assume to occur in cattle class and enjoy my day out.

I remember getting the train from Holyhead to London Euston and seeing Standard Class passengers sitting on the floor in the vestibule areas. I was sitting in a comfy seat sipping fresh orange juice at the time. Also, being able to have a solo cabin on the two Sleepers I travelled on was good, and the general at-seat service was nice too.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh god. How could I forget? (Embarrassing)


I can’t remember British trains from before 2010 sadly, but I have been on a 205 Thumper?

Yes, the 205's had nice 1st class compartments - unless it was the one at Epping which lost them during a refurbishment.

 

[amcluesent]

Having done 8 years of PBO-KGX in FC, I can say -

+ Never seen any sense of entitlement from genuine ticket holders. But have heard every BS story under the sun from pax "trying it on" to sit in FC when tickets were inspected. I could spot 'bother' from a mile-off, no doubt so could the ticket inspectors.
+ Standard class pax often had to be blocked by train staff from walking through FC to be 30 seconds closer to the platform gates at KGX
+ Standard class pax walking through FC seemed to have huge problems controlling their bags which would dunt the heads of FC ticket holders
+ A big value-add of season-ticket FC was the KGX lounge when things went pete tong. HEard plenty of argie-bargies as peeps on FC Advance tried their luck getting in!

 

[dcsprior]

Only. But - there would have to be standards.

- 2x1 reclinable seating.

- Window curtains or blinds.

Personally, on East Coast I'd happily have a seat that couldn't be reclined, rather than the (seemingly quite high) chance of it being stuck in the recline setting.

I see no reason that standard-class services shouldn't have blinds in standard class - other than to provide a point of difference between standard and first and therefore encourage upgrades.

 

[Spamcan81]

I think this sums up, really, my view of the situation as expressed on this board. I also object, vehemently, to the idea that us second class passengers are somehow scum because we don't have access to the railway version of the masons handshake!



I have done both first and second class ALR and enjoyed them both.

Unlike many posters here I seem to be able to tune out the screaming and braying that many assume to occur in cattle class and enjoy my day out.

I object to the idea that us first class passengers are all snobs and look down on second class passengers. I've work hard for a living for 50 years and now I can afford a bit more comfort on long distance journeys, I'll happily go for it. I refute the idea that this makes me a bad person.

 

[Adsy125]

Personally, on East Coast I'd happily have a seat that couldn't be reclined, rather than the (seemingly quite high) chance of it being stuck in the recline setting.

I see no reason that standard-class services shouldn't have blinds in standard class - other than to provide a point of difference between standard and first and therefore encourage upgrades.

Please no! Blinds only cause arguments between passengers. Curtains are much better, especially when it's 2 rows of seats to a window so everyone has control of what they want without frustrating other passengers.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I object to the idea that us first class passengers are all snobs and look down on second class passengers. I've work hard for a living for 50 years and now I can afford a bit more comfort on long distance journeys, I'll happily go for it. I refute the idea that this makes me a bad person.

And just because I travel first class a lot doesn’t mean I’m a snob either to be fair. A lot have you have said that I am on this thread, but a snob is someone who physically looks down on standard class passengers and considers themselves superior. In no way have I done that.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Here's a radical thought - All train services should have a MINIMUM of 1 carriage of First Class. Stops the high flying executives, politicians and bankers slumming it with the peasants

Good luck trying to fit that down the Stourbridge Town branch with a 139 attached!

 

[DarloRich]

I object to the idea that us first class passengers are all snobs and look down on second class passengers. I've work hard for a living for 50 years and now I can afford a bit more comfort on long distance journeys, I'll happily go for it. I refute the idea that this makes me a bad person.

I am considerably richer than yow

 

[trainophile]

I've just booked a return trip from Hereford to Richmond (London) in April. 1st Class tickets on my chosen trains, changing at Reading, work out at a total of £6.90 dearer than Standard Class. No brainer.