Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[II]

I agree keith1879 - an interesting concept that got a whole lot more interesting for me when the battery version started to be developed. Even if the 230s themselves aren't a major success, it's good to see they will at least be given a chance to prove themselves between Bedford and Bletchley as diesel versions, and there's a good chance that the development work that will go into the battery version will prove useful for the future development of other products.

 

[hooverboy]

769 flex would have probably been a better option as:
1) local service depots familiar with 319 setup and maintainance,also driver training as a lot of drivers already passed to work on them
2)both bedford and bletchley are already wired
3)seating and ride quality will be better

drawback would be the flex would have to be 3 car, two cabs and motor...so would increase running costs(although at peak time a 3 car might suffice instead of 2*2 car)

if they can run a 4 car 319 on the abbey line then there is no reason not to run similar on marston vale,the footfall is higher.

 

[class387]

769 flex would have probably been a better option as:
1) local service depots familiar with 319 setup and maintainance,also driver training as a lot of drivers already passed to work on them
2)both bedford and bletchley are already wired
3)seating and ride quality will be better

drawback would be the flex would have to be 3 car, two cabs and motor...so would increase running costs(although at peak time a 3 car might suffice instead of 2*2 car)

if they can run a 4 car 319 on the abbey line then there is no reason not to run similar on marston vale,the footfall is higher.

Marston Vale platforms are 40m long, with no possibility of SDO.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

769 flex would have probably been a better option as:
1) local service depots familiar with 319 setup and maintainance,also driver training as a lot of drivers already passed to work on them
2)both bedford and bletchley are already wired
3)seating and ride quality will be better

drawback would be the flex would have to be 3 car, two cabs and motor...so would increase running costs(although at peak time a 3 car might suffice instead of 2*2 car)

if they can run a 4 car 319 on the abbey line then there is no reason not to run similar on marston vale,the footfall is higher.

I know that shortening pure-electric 319s to 3-car was ruled out on cost grounds due to essential equipment from the trailer car needing to be relocated. Is this not an issue with the Flex units then? Or does it depend on whether the unit is intended to be a bi-mode as opposed to purely diesel?

 

[Clarence Yard]

I know that shortening pure-electric 319s to 3-car was ruled out on cost grounds due to essential equipment from the trailer car needing to be relocated. Is this not an issue with the Flex units then? Or does it depend on whether the unit is intended to be a bi-mode as opposed to purely diesel?

From enquiring with the owners, moving the equipment is an issue of both space and weight. You also take out the toilet car, which is not ideal these days.

The Flex variant doesn’t affect that position.

Moving back to the 230 units, they may be ideal for niche situations where you don’t operate other DMU sets but where you do, they introduce a fairly restricted variant into your DMU Fleet. That’s why, despite the hard sell at times, they haven’t found a wider interest within the TOC community. And that’s all before the very real “political” issue of using sets of that vintage and LT heritage to replace 15x stock.

 

[47802]

From enquiring with the owners, moving the equipment is an issue of both space and weight. You also take out the toilet car, which is not ideal these days.

The Flex variant doesn’t affect that position.

Moving back to the 230 units, they may be ideal for niche situations where you don’t operate other DMU sets but where you do, they introduce a fairly restricted variant into your DMU Fleet. That’s why, despite the hard sell at times, they haven’t found a wider interest within the TOC community. And that’s all before the very real “political” issue of using sets of that vintage and LT heritage to replace 15x stock.

Hallelujah a knowledgeable poster telling it how it is.

 

[hooverboy]

Marston Vale platforms are 40m long, with no possibility of SDO.

that's going to change somewhat when east west rail gets up and running. at least 4 stations on that line are going to be 150m+, many others that are staggered will also be remodelled as the adjacent level crossings will be taken out of the equation and replaced with dive-unders or bridges.

 

[class387]

that's going to change somewhat when east west rail gets up and running. at least 4 stations on that line are going to be 150m+, many others that are staggered will also be remodelled as the adjacent level crossings will be taken out of the equation and replaced with dive-unders or bridges.

There will probably be new trains when EWR is complete - the 230s are a stop-gap until then.

 

[birchesgreen]

7
2)both bedford and bletchley are already wired

For a hundred metres or so either end, the vast majority of the line is not wired.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For a hundred metres or so either end, the vast majority of the line is not wired.

Yep, the point was that there is a facility to charge an IPEMU at both ends, I think.

 

[D365]

Yep, the point was that there is a facility to charge an IPEMU at both ends, I think.

Which is the kind of route where the “B-Train” will prove ideal.

Is there a definitive answer on how long it will take for EWR to get off the ground? Especially considering the notable lack of electrification plans...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is the kind of route where the “B-Train” will prove ideal.

Is there a definitive answer on how long it will take for EWR to get off the ground? Especially considering the notable lack of electrification plans...

I can see it getting canned, personally.

 

[47802]

I can see it getting canned, personally.

Given the Government are talking about building Garden Towns along the route today, I would think that's unlikely

 

[coppercapped]

Which is the kind of route where the “B-Train” will prove ideal.

Is there a definitive answer on how long it will take for EWR to get off the ground? Especially considering the notable lack of electrification plans...

From the Treasury's position paper published after last year's Autumn Budget:

The government:

• confirms funding for Network Rail to deliver phase two of the western section of East West Rail, from Bicester to Bedford, and Milton Keynes to Princes Risborough, with the aim of the first passenger services to be running in 2023 and the project to be complete by 2024; and is establishing an independent East West Rail Company, which will seek opportunities to accelerate delivery of the central section of East West Rail between Bedford and Cambridge, with the aim for passenger services to begin by the mid-2020s.

My emphasis. This is as authoritative as it gets.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yep, the point was that there is a facility to charge an IPEMU at both ends, I think.

They were talking about 769s

 

[mushroomchow]

769 flex would have probably been a better option as:
1) local service depots familiar with 319 setup and maintainance,also driver training as a lot of drivers already passed to work on them
2)both bedford and bletchley are already wired
3)seating and ride quality will be better

drawback would be the flex would have to be 3 car, two cabs and motor...so would increase running costs(although at peak time a 3 car might suffice instead of 2*2 car)

if they can run a 4 car 319 on the abbey line then there is no reason not to run similar on marston vale,the footfall is higher.

The 230 has one major benefit over the 769 for Bedford - Bletchley... it actually exists.

 

[keith1879]

The 230 has one major benefit over the 769 for Bedford - Bletchley... it actually exists.

The idea that a 769 is an alternative to a 230 seems bizarre to me. The 769 has never been marketed as a pure self-powered multiple unit but rather as an EMU with the ability to carry on after the wires finish. There may have been some inspiration in terms of "maybe we can put a diesel engine under our train too" but the two don't seem equivalent to me. That's before you get into size, weight, capacity, speed etc all of which seem to make the two trains completely different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 230 has one major benefit over the 769 for Bedford - Bletchley... it actually exists.

And it won't hang off the end of the platforms and block level crossings and junctions.

This issue is the whole reason for the unconventional solution. They'd probably just use a pair of 172s if it were not for this.

 

[Domh245]

The idea that a 769 is an alternative to a 230 seems bizarre to me. The 769 has never been marketed as a pure self-powered multiple unit but rather as an EMU with the ability to carry on after the wires finish. There may have been some inspiration in terms of "maybe we can put a diesel engine under our train too" but the two don't seem equivalent to me. That's before you get into size, weight, capacity, speed etc all of which seem to make the two trains completely different.

It may not have been marketed as a pure DMU, but that's how the 5 that have been ordered for Wales will (likely) be used!

 

[IanXC]

For the avoidance of doubt, this thread should be used for discussion of the overall project and concept, and this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/viva-rail-class-230s-for-west-midlands-trains.161444/ for discussion of the West Midlands Trains order and introduction.

 

[brel york]

I keep saying it but surely most passengers just want a clean reliable train with the chance of getting a seat, i have worked in the rail vehicle industry since 1985 and soon realised that the coaches or multiple units that were getting worked on meant nothing to most employees, my office desk overlooks Doncaster west yard and station and i am frequently asked what type of train people can see out of the window and their in the industry

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I keep saying it but surely most passengers just want a clean reliable train with the chance of getting a seat, i have worked in the rail vehicle industry since 1985 and soon realised that the coaches or multiple units that were getting worked on meant nothing to most employees, my office desk overlooks Doncaster west yard and station and i am frequently asked what type of train people can see out of the window and their in the industry

I imagine it's the same in any industry: for some of the employees it's just a job they fell into almost by accident, but for some it's their passion, their "calling"... even retail has those, and I guess even refuse collection might too. There'll be a smaller group who started out as the first group but transitioned into the second!

 

[reddragon]

So will the D train make the New York subway, run from LA to Las Vegas of be the new Rocky Mountain Express?

https://www.railjournal.com/index.p...in-to-be-tested-in-us-cities.html?channel=535

 

[47802]

So will the D train make the New York subway, run from LA to Las Vegas of be the new Rocky Mountain Express?

https://www.railjournal.com/index.p...in-to-be-tested-in-us-cities.html?channel=535

Hopefully a one way trip across the Altantic. America not all bad, managed to get rid of James Cordon over there and now D trains! unfortunately they did send us Piers Morgan Back

 

[MarkyT]

An interesting excerpt from the article:

RDC’s core proposition is that the Vivarail train can provide a solution for cities which have previously discounted passenger rail as an option on cost or complexity grounds, enabling them to test possible services “for less than the cost of a consultant’s study into a possible service,” as Posner puts it.

 

[MarkyT]

Hopefully a one way trip across the Altantic. America not all bad, managed to get rid of James Cordon over there and now D trains! unfortunately they did send us Piers Morgan Back

So you quite like America but would wish to palm off what you consider inferior on them. Some friendship! I say very good luck to Vivarail in whatever market they can find. Rules have changed in the US to allow European norms in structural integrity and end buffing loads to apply where lines are equipped with PTC (positive train control, meaning train protection systems controlling speed and enforcing signals). Previous attempts to import European inspired designs led to a near doubling of the weight of passenger cars on the East Coast Acelas for instance compared to similar high speed coaches in France or Germany, in order to meet FRA (Federal Rail Administration) standards. High platforms need not be a problem on an all new passenger rail system where new facilities would need to be built anyway and they are likely to be fairly short platforms anyway, especially on an experimental service. D trains will probably need fixed or extending gap filler steps at each door for US operations. Platforms, although easily provided at the correct height, will need to be set back sufficiently to clear any wider freight vehicles that share the same track. As a nation, we must refuse to take back Cordon in exchange however!

 

[Mollman]

(Totally off-topic, but does anyone know the story with the Sprinter Express vehicle? I have some very vague recollection of the existence of such a vehicle but can't remember anything meaningful..!?)

Wasn't it something to do with the exported version?

 

[hooverboy]

An interesting excerpt from the article:

short-sighted thinking IMHO.
it would not be a village line if they had a plan to connect up the regional/intercity "hub" stations...which MKC is/ bletchley is not.
FWIW it is not just a matter of initial infrastructure outlay costs, this has to be balanced against footfall.

you create a line which goes from one mainline interchange to another,with minimal connection time, and county commercial hubs to boot, you will have the people on board paying fares, which will justify a regular/evening/weekend service which would otherwise be seriously loss-making, deprived of quality rolling stock,carriage space etc etc....

in short, I think they screwed up trying to bypass MKC for the full service.that corridor(oxford-mkc-bedford-cambridge) is ABSOLUTELY the lifeblood of their respective counties,and needs the fastest,most seemless connections possible,

as for 230's,they certainly do have a place on cornwall tourist lines.if they have seriously low running costs and better reliability than pacers,then they do have a place on the network.

......my point is that marston vale, if done correctly ,is a commuter line, not a leisure one.

 

[bastien]

Hopefully a one way trip across the Altantic. America not all bad, managed to get rid of James Cordon over there and now D trains! unfortunately they did send us Piers Morgan Back

Hahaha - "our loss... Is also America's loss." - as Stewart Lee once said.

 

[mark-h]

We exported Class 141 Pacers to Iran who then became hostile to the west- it may be worth keeping the Americans on our side!