Hattersley - Fixed Penalty Notice

[ANorthernGuard]

Couldn't agree more - the kids on this, or there again, any line are often totally out of control - never mind the "last train" types - but this still doesn't justify chasing my daughter around Piccadilly station and reducing her to tears whilst all she was trying to do was pay. Even Northern management understood that in the end - But barriers - after the morning shift is over - surely they will simply be left open, and we are back to square one. Are on board machines such an impossibility??

Most of us do try and get through but it is a strange line when we have things like plungers to press at Newton that means we need to be near the rear of the train it has become easier since we miss out Gorton as it just gives us that bit more time. I do agree though that the outsourced RPI's are way too aggressive but as Guards there is not much we can do. The Barriers are on most of the day though at Glossop which helps greatly.

 

[K12r]

Unfortunately, it's not 'TOTAL nonsense'. Please see Corbyn v Saunders [1978] 1 WLR 400, in which the Court found that there had been an opportunity to pay and that he did not take that opportunity: "when passing the ticket collector at his final destination, the requisite intention to avoid payment is proved" and that this judgement is used daily in prosecuting RoRA S.5 offences where 'any' opportunity to pay is not taken, not just 'an' opportunity.

Unfortunately, the 'several' who think that najab is 'clearly wrong' appear to be similarly unfamiliar with the jurisprudence of railway law.

Having said that, I agree with ainsworth74 that " the layout of this event is so crucial." and "If in the passengers line of sight was a ticket office and the revenue protection staff then I would say that approaching them to buy a ticket is unlikely to allow a TOC prosecutor to show intent to avoid a fare." It is 'unlikely', but not impossible, and certainly not 'TOTAL nonsense'.

Of course - what's relevant to the OP ( RTFQ ! ) is that he hasn't passed the ticket collector at his final destination. An important distinction that many cannot grasp, yet is the crux of the matter.
Jurisprudence that !

 

[6Gman]

He's not passed up any opportunity to pay - he tried to avail himself if the opportunity to purchase from the ticket sellers at the exit.
Good though that you appreciate ainsworths point on the realities of the actual chances of prosecution doomed to fail.

But this is the crux. Were the ticket sellers at the exit? Or beyond it?

None of us (except the OP) know.

 

[Gareth Marston]

But this is the crux. Were the ticket sellers at the exit? Or beyond it?

None of us (except the OP) know.

Unless the OP comes back to us the thread should be closed down as it's going in circles.

 

[najaB]

Of course - what's relevant to the OP ( RTFQ ! ) is that he hasn't passed the ticket collector at his final destination.

From the description given in the OP's post they weren't ticket collectors (whatever they are), but rather RPIs outside the station conducting a revenue exercise:

...and they would not allow me to go back in the door and get one...

This is the crucial fact that you seem to be missing.

 

[K12r]

If they looked like ticket collectors then it matters not what job title they had that day.

This thread is a prime example if why seeking advice on a forum isn't a top idea!

 

[K12r]

From the description given in the OP's post they weren't ticket collectors (whatever they are), but rather RPIs outside the station conducting a revenue exercise:
This is the crucial fact that you seem to be missing.

Corbyn refers to ticket collectors , they are just what a layman would think they are

 

[Llanigraham]

If they looked like ticket collectors then it matters not what job title they had that day.

I believe the polite term is "rubbish".

This thread is a prime example if why seeking advice on a forum isn't a top idea!

I would suggest that arguing with the person with the most legal experience of railway legallities on this forum isn't the most sensible thing to do. His advice has been proven to be correct numerous times.

 

[ainsworth74]

We seem to be going in increasing circles and it does not appear that the OP is returning as such this thread is now locked. If anyone wishes to discuss any of the wider issues raised please feel free to start a new thread to do so.

To the OP if you do want more information or advice please feel free to use the 'Report' function on this posting (bottom left) to let us know you want more info/advice and the Forum Staff will look at reopening the thread.