Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[CyrusWuff]

Personal relationships in business go a long way that’s why

One look at Chiltern's accounts would tell you that the entire board of Directors has changed following Mr Shooter's departure, and any potential lease of 230s would have to be approved by the DfT and Deutsche Bahn (as the ultimate controlling company).

 

[gazthomas]

One look at Chiltern's accounts would tell you that the entire board of Directors has changed following Mr Shooter's departure, and any potential lease of 230s would have to be approved by the DfT and Deutsche Bahn (as the ultimate controlling company).

Thanks for saving me the effort

 

[BucksBones]

One look at Chiltern's accounts would tell you that the entire board of Directors has changed following Mr Shooter's departure, and any potential lease of 230s would have to be approved by the DfT and Deutsche Bahn (as the ultimate controlling company).

Be that as it may, one would think that these units would be ideal for Chiltern as losing the 121s has left them more stretched than ever.

 

[t_star2001uk]

One look at Chiltern's accounts would tell you that the entire board of Directors has changed following Mr Shooter's departure, and any potential lease of 230s would have to be approved by the DfT and Deutsche Bahn (as the ultimate controlling company).

You beat me to it....

 

[t_star2001uk]

Personal relationships in business go a long way that’s why

There is no personal relationship between Mr Shooter and the current board and DB Arriva. The Princes Risboro -Aylesbury shuttle, since the departure of the 121's can now be worked by most of the Chiltern Drivers, with a few exceptions. If 230's were to be hired it would then be a case of, probably link 1 at Aylesbury being retrained, and with only a few years left for the franchise to run, there would not be a business case for such an outlay.

 

[Nicks]

Vivarail has now been in business for several years spending shed loads of cash and without a penny of earnings, must be some sort of record!

 

[route:oxford]

Vivarail has now been in business for several years spending shed loads of cash and without a penny of earnings, must be some sort of record!

You've never looked at the Pharma industry have you?

 

[edwin_m]

I’m surprised there’s no interest in these from Chiltern for the Aylesbury-Risborough branch. It would free up much needed 165s.

Perhaps because they expect the remaining shuttles to be replaced by through workings to Milton Keynes sometime within a few years.

What I think has been missing from the discussion is the possibility of ending up with a low-cost readily available spot hire fleet. The existing DMU fleet is intensively diagrammed (and the amount of complex interworking between branches and main lines is a symptom of that) and when a unit goes long-term sick either due to a mishap or an expensive failure, there's no slack. Ergo, cancellations and short-forms. If there was an option to pick up a 230 and put it on a self-contained branch-line diagram to free up a main-line unit, perhaps we'd see service levels maintained better...

I think the low top speed is a problem here. There are actually very few diagrams that are self-contained and don't involve a significant amount of 75mph running at some point during the day. Also keeping an existing train in warm storage until somebody wants to hire it is a lot less risky than having do a major conversion. This takes time (as we have seen) which makes it difficult to meet any short-term requirement, and costs money that has to be recovered through lease charges possibly over quite a short period. The 769 is less problematic as a spot hire unit on all these counts, having a better top speed and a less radical conversion, but even this seems to be having difficulties.

Vivarail has now been in business for several years spending shed loads of cash and without a penny of earnings, must be some sort of record!

There are plenty of "tech" companies where investors are prepared to support huge losses in the hope of winning big if and when they disrupt an existing industry. You may think this isn't relevant to transport, but it's the business model used by Uber.

 

[hooverboy]

most people want a train to look like a real train.
I can see the merit of a 230 on the most ridiculously sparce branch line,where you might generally get half a dozen passengers per journey..but such lines do not require both a driver and guard...that is basically £100k per year in operating costs before a train even runs on the line.

in truth the most efficient operation for these lines would be to run it like a bus...ticket verification on entry by the drivers door...random inspection by revenue collection officers

FWIW the ex docklands stuff would be viewed as more "modern" by customers than D78's.
even a pimped up 313 would be seen as an improvement.

I would be quite interested to see what this new VLR base in dudley can pull out of the hat.If they can get the manufacturing cost under control,and the range right with thier battery/hybrid solutions they might be onto a serious winner......fingers crossed for them because it looks like a project with legs.

with VLR and D78,they ought to both be running a serious discount on track access charges.

 

[Bletchleyite]

195 verses 230.

195 Higher Top Speed
195 Air Conditioning
195 Higher Seating Capacity
195 Toilet unclear as to whether a 2 Car 230 can have a toilet or not
195 Designed for 21st century Crash Regs, 230 designed for late 70's regs and strengthened up recently.
195 New train designed to be a DMU not a recycled EMU.
195 Looks like a 21st century train not a 1980's train
195 Uses proven diesel engine in rail application.

230 Unproven engine in rail environment.
230 May be cheaper to run
230 May be easier to maintain locally
230 May be cheaper to Buy/Lease but considering your buying a 35 year old train with some new bits may not be that cheap relatively speaking.
230 Train actually older than the train aimed at replacing i.e Pacer, with lower top speed

A Class 195 is a regional express unit. A 230 is a local DMU. They are not the same thing.

A valid comparison would be with a Class 150, 153 or Pacer, or if you want to go more modern something like a Stadler GTW or the new WINK. The UK has not ordered new DMUs for branch line local stopping services since the Class 150 or the 155->153 conversions, it typically does this by cascade instead.

There are lines they are suitable for. The best ones are, like the Marston Vale:
- Diesel branch line with no scope for electrification;
- Typically very low loadings, but seasonal or occasional very high loadings, making the as-built part-facing part-longitudinal seating layout workable;
- Low linespeed;
- Frequent stops.

The Vale has an added benefit of "needs a 2-car unit for capacity at some times of day, but 2x23m won't fit, and nobody sells a new 2x20m DMU".

Examples of suitable lines (I know some have other plans):
- Marston Vale;
- Marks Tey-Sudbury;
- Princes Risborough-Aylesbury (won't be running to MK that soon, so a unit with about a 10 year lifespan would be fine);
- Ormskirk-Preston;
- Kirkby (or later Skelmersdale) to Wigan but operated as a standalone shuttle;
- All the Thames Valley branches, in particular the Windsor shuttle where a 4-car unit with Tube seat layout would be perfect;
- All the Cornish branches;
- Barrow-Carlisle[1];
- Windermere shuttle[2];
- Conwy Valley.

[1] With my proposal applied i.e. an hourly clockface Manchester Airport to Barrow Class 769, 195 or 158 service with a Class 230 connection to Carlisle in selected hours. But even if not doing that, they could be obtained quickly and used to get rid of the terribly unreliable LHCS.

[2] Assuming a removal of through running in the short term.

I'm sure there are lots of others.

 

[MML]

I was wondering whether c230 units could be used to start
Princes Risborough-Aylesbury-Milton Keynes-Bletchley-Bedford through services before East-West Rail electrification.
Though there may be difficulties with questions over who would operate the combined service.

Similarly, would it be possible to operate these units as a shuttle service from West Hampstead Thameslink or Cricklewood to link with the West Coast mainline and Great Western mainline with the Midland Mainline. There will be connections at Farringdon for the Thameslink and Crossrail, but a simple journey from say Bedford to Heathrow takes far too long going all the way into central London and then coming all the way out again. A shuttle would cut the corner off.

 

[D60]

Vivarail has now been in business for several years spending shed loads of cash and without a penny of earnings, must be some sort of record!

Vivarail has now been in business for several years spending shed loads of cash and without a penny of earnings, must be some sort of record!

Seem to recall reading that Vivarail had been in receipt of development funding from the DfT for the battery 230..? Can anyone confirm or deny?

 

[Billy A]

You've never looked at the Pharma industry have you?

Or Tesla!

 

[Non Multi]

... but a simple journey from say Bedford to Heathrow takes far too long going all the way into central London and then coming all the way out again. A shuttle would cut the corner off.

Worth pointing out the 787 Nat Ex coach from Luton, or the Arriva Greenline 724 from St Albans both take you to Heathrow avoiding central London.

 

[MML]

Worth pointing out the 787 Nat Ex coach from Luton, or the Arriva Greenline 724 from St Albans both take you to Heathrow avoiding central London.

Thanks. That is true. But neither are quick. From Luton to Heathrow T5, the journey time is on average 2 hours owing to a sightseeing detour into Hemel Hempstead and then a circuit tour of Heathrow Central and T4.
LTN-West Hampstead = 25 minutes
West Hampstead to Old Oak Common = 15 minutes
Old Oak Common to Heathrow T5 = 25 minutes.
Might get an end to end journey of 1hr 15mins, with 5 minute connections.
I know steam specials route from Victoria to the MML but not sure where the lines go towards the west of London.

 

[47802]

A Class 195 is a regional express unit. A 230 is a local DMU. They are not the same thing.

A valid comparison would be with a Class 150, 153 or Pacer, or if you want to go more modern something like a Stadler GTW or the new WINK. The UK has not ordered new DMUs for branch line local stopping services since the Class 150 or the 155->153 conversions, it typically does this by cascade instead.

There are lines they are suitable for. The best ones are, like the Marston Vale:
- Diesel branch line with no scope for electrification;
- Typically very low loadings, but seasonal or occasional very high loadings, making the as-built part-facing part-longitudinal seating layout workable;
- Low linespeed;
- Frequent stops.

The Vale has an added benefit of "needs a 2-car unit for capacity at some times of day, but 2x23m won't fit, and nobody sells a new 2x20m DMU".

Examples of suitable lines (I know some have other plans):
- Marston Vale;
- Marks Tey-Sudbury;
- Princes Risborough-Aylesbury (won't be running to MK that soon, so a unit with about a 10 year lifespan would be fine);
- Ormskirk-Preston;
- Kirkby (or later Skelmersdale) to Wigan but operated as a standalone shuttle;
- All the Thames Valley branches, in particular the Windsor shuttle where a 4-car unit with Tube seat layout would be perfect;
- All the Cornish branches;
- Barrow-Carlisle[1];
- Windermere shuttle[2];
- Conwy Valley.

[1] With my proposal applied i.e. an hourly clockface Manchester Airport to Barrow Class 769, 195 or 158 service with a Class 230 connection to Carlisle in selected hours. But even if not doing that, they could be obtained quickly and used to get rid of the terribly unreliable LHCS.

[2] Assuming a removal of through running in the short term.

I'm sure there are lots of others.

Sorry but in some ways they are, you describe the 195 as regional express DMU but any new DMU would be similar from the main manufacturers, plus Shooter says they can be the best new train in the country so lets compare to a new DMU i.e. a 195.

Your saying that they are more directly comparable to a 150 you can argue that but I would argue a modern day 150 you would expect something more equivalent to a 195. You could argue that for light branches then yes some kind of cheaper light rail vehicle might be more appropriate but such as Northern I think for this franchise at least a go more or less anywhere 150 with complex and maximised diagrams probably works for them rather than Daisy the Diesel pottering permanently down a little branch which you seem to have in mind.

If for instance say the Whitby branch was turned into a Micro Franchise run by the NYMR then yes maybe a fleet of 3 car 230's might work better than 156's from a maintenance viewpoint.

Barrow-Carlisle is better suited to 156's than 230's and from my observations quite a few people prefer the through trains from the Cumbrian coast to Lancaster or Preston so I hope they at least retain a few through trains.

You can suggest as many branch lines you like but the TOC's in most cases have other plans.

I can also tell you as Northerner who uses Northern Rail a fair bit I would have been highly annoyed if substancial number of 230's had been obtained for Northern

 

[Non Multi]

I know steam specials route from Victoria to the MML but not sure where the lines go towards the west of London.

Windsor Lines from Clapham Jn to Chiswick, then onto Hounslow loop to Kew Junctions for the North London line. NLL through Acton and onto Dudding Hill line for the MML, joining at Brent Jn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could argue that for light branches then yes some kind of cheaper light rail vehicle might be more appropriate but such as Northern I think for this franchise at least a go more or less anywhere 150 with complex and maximised diagrams probably works for them rather than Daisy the Diesel pottering permanently down a little branch which you seem to have in mind.

Why? Complex diagrams are used to make maximum utilisation of a stretched and inadequate fleet. Simple diagrams are much better as they are much more reliable as they reduce knock-on disruption - do some reading, for example, on what's being done to the Southern South London Metro services - reduced splitting and joining (none in some cases), and single route self-contained diagrams.

I can also tell you as Northerner who uses Northern Rail a fair bit I would have been highly annoyed if substancial number of 230's had been obtained for Northern

I don't understand this at all. If I was in Northernland at present I would welcome ANY capacity enhancement, the overcrowding really is beyond a joke. And because of reliability issues, those on the Marston Vale will also welcome them.

They aren't suitable for 100mph mainline regional express services - but who cares? Nobody is proposing using them on 100mph mainline regional express services.

 

[GusB]

You're wasting your breath, Neil - 47802 has a bee in their bonnet about "old trains", and a certain snobbishness about ex-London old trains in particular. It won't be too long before the trains in these parts are replaced by Great Western cast-offs. Bring 'em on, I say.

It was mentioned upthread that the 230s could provide spot-hire to TOCs that needed extra capacity. Perhaps they could also provide TOCs with rolling stock at short notice if they ever decided that they wanted to try out a particular service, but thus far have been prevented from doing so because of the lack of diesel stock available.

 

[philthetube]

most people want a train to look like a real train.

Most people dont give a monkeys what their train looks like, This sounds like looking for negatives for the sake of it.

I have no idea whether these trains will be good or not but this thread has to hold the record for people looking for negatives.

 

[The Ham]

You're wasting your breath, Neil - 47802 has a bee in their bonnet about "old trains", and a certain snobbishness about ex-London old trains in particular. It won't be too long before the trains in these parts are replaced by Great Western cast-offs. Bring 'em on, I say.

It was mentioned upthread that the 230s could provide spot-hire to TOCs that needed extra capacity. Perhaps they could also provide TOCs with rolling stock at short notice if they ever decided that they wanted to try out a particular service, but thus far have been prevented from doing so because of the lack of diesel stock available.

As a southerner I would be quite happy to use such a train on a new service that was being tested out. Given that even though it would result in a DMU (unless they could be used on third rails) being used when an EMU could run the service. However given that it would be two or three coaches long rather than likely 4 coaches would probably mean that it was cheaper to lease and run, this making the new service more likely to be seen as viable.

I would suggest that the main reason that it appears that the south gets all the new trains is that a significant number of the lines in the southeast are third rail and so can't receive many units from the North (nor can the North take many trains from them). However that means that on SWR in 10 years time the longer distance units are all likely to be getting on for 30 years old with the exception of replacements for the 442's and 159's. On the other hand Northern are likely to have a newer fleet (given that most of their current fleet would need replacing by then). Currently the SWR fleet's average age is only about 7.5 years newer than Northern's (circa 28 Vs 21 years old) whilst TPE's is a lot lower as it's in single figures which is the lowest of all the TOC's.

In fact looking at those franchises with the lowest average fleets they tend to be those that serve places outside of the southeast (although many do include services there). These include LM and Virgin West Coast. However at the other end is a bit of a mixed bag n teens of places served with Scottish sleepers, GWR, Mersey Rail and TFL rail being amongst the oldest (although all of those are due new trains fairly soon, although I'm sure that they'll be those that say that it is London centric as nearly all of those TOC's serve London).

 

[hooverboy]

Most people dont give a monkeys what their train looks like, This sounds like looking for negatives for the sake of it.

I have no idea whether these trains will be good or not but this thread has to hold the record for people looking for negatives.

well for a start if you thought pacers were a bit bouncy then D78's give them a run for their money!

 

[BucksBones]

well for a start if you thought pacers were a bit bouncy then D78's give them a run for their money!

I have no idea how you are able to assess the ride quality of a unit that hasn’t entered service yet.

Anyway, as has already been pointed out, nobody cares. I’m sure the users of the Bedford - Bletchley line will welcome the extra capacity over the 153 and, hopefully, improved reliability.

Travelling on a 230 is clearly not going to be the same experience as travelling on a modern inter-city unit, and nor is it supposed to be (please, nobody quote Adrian Shooter again in response to this point - he is a man trying to sell a product in a competitive market, of course he is going to use hyperbole). They will be more than adequate for the job for which they have been designed.

 

[47802]

Why? Complex diagrams are used to make maximum utilisation of a stretched and inadequate fleet. Simple diagrams are much better as they are much more reliable as they reduce knock-on disruption - do some reading, for example, on what's being done to the Southern South London Metro services - reduced splitting and joining (none in some cases), and single route self-contained diagrams.



I don't understand this at all. If I was in Northernland at present I would welcome ANY capacity enhancement, the overcrowding really is beyond a joke. And because of reliability issues, those on the Marston Vale will also welcome them.

They aren't suitable for 100mph mainline regional express services - but who cares? Nobody is proposing using them on 100mph mainline regional express services.

Look my views on 230 are well known but at the end of the day they don't matter, am I against old trains in general yes, and HST's wouldn't be my choice for Scotrail but at least they are a quality train that has been substancially modernised over the years and are in no way comparable to a 230.

You say Northern's fleet is stretched and inadequate maybe it is but it is making the best use of what they have with a flexible fleet which is what you don't get with a 230

Anyway lets cut to the chase the likely reason why the Northern franchise isn't get getting 230's is because it would be politically unacceptable and I am pleased that's the case, you go to Scotrail with a third of the population of the North of England and there's not a 150 in sight never mind a Pacer.

Northern have a plan to increase capacity with their new and cascaded trains and any shortfall is being made up with 769's. If the 769's turn out to be a disaster then other alternatives will have to be considered but there are other options rather than resorting to 230 which I think and hope will be the option of last resort for the Northern Franchise.

A final point about the 230's is that financially they actually don't seem like a particularly good deal to me, and with the Marston Vale units it will be interesting to see how far they go in terms of tarting up the interior, how many longitudinal seats will be replaced if any, and whether or not it will get a Toilet, in other words will it look like a tarted up D train or "the best New Train in the Country"

 

[47802]

I have no idea how you are able to assess the ride quality of a unit that hasn’t entered service yet.

Anyway, as has already been pointed out, nobody cares. I’m sure the users of the Bedford - Bletchley line will welcome the extra capacity over the 153 and, hopefully, improved reliability.

Travelling on a 230 is clearly not going to be the same experience as travelling on a modern inter-city unit, and nor is it supposed to be (please, nobody quote Adrian Shooter again in response to this point - he is a man trying to sell a product in a competitive market, of course he is going to use hyperbole). They will be more than adequate for the job for which they have been designed.

So what he makes those claims for all to see so he should stick to them!

 

[squizzler]

most people want a train to look like a real train.

That's why we have heritage railways

 

[Bletchleyite]

A final point about the 230's is that financially they actually don't seem like a particularly good deal to me, and with the Marston Vale units it will be interesting to see how far they go in terms of tarting up the interior, how many longitudinal seats will be replaced if any, and whether or not it will get a Toilet, in other words will it look like a tarted up D train or "the best New Train in the Country"

I've mentioned why I think the as-built D78 seat layout (with a few tweaks to add a wheelchair and bicycle space and some luggage provision) is ideal for the Marston Vale, so I would expect they will have the Tube seat layout, i.e. 5 sections of seats per coach with some longitudinal and some facing. They might well block a couple of doors up and add some seats or luggage racks there, that will be interesting to see, though.

I don't know about toilets but it is a relatively short journey with both termini (most people travel to/from one of them rather than fully local journeys) having toilets.

 

[jimm]

Vivarail has now been in business for several years spending shed loads of cash and without a penny of earnings, must be some sort of record!

It has hardly spent 'shedloads' of cash - and much of the expenditure was on buying D78s at the scrap price, which would be recouped by selling them on for scrap if no orders for more 230s materialise.

A final point about the 230's is that financially they actually don't seem like a particularly good deal to me, and with the Marston Vale units it will be interesting to see how far they go in terms of tarting up the interior, how many longitudinal seats will be replaced if any, and whether or not it will get a Toilet, in other words will it look like a tarted up D train or "the best New Train in the Country"

What the interiors look like will be up to West Midlands Trains, not Adrian Shooter, Vivarail, 'they' or anyone else. From day one Vivarail has been clear that customers could specify the door and interior layout from a range of options. And the announcement includes the following line from WMR "I am sure our passengers will welcome the new look and feel of the carriages and the extra space" which might suggest a fairly extensive refit.

But given your dislike of the entire concept, WMR could presumably ask for 1+1 comfy armchair seating aligned with the windows thoughout and you would still criticise it.

 

[47802]

It has hardly spent 'shedloads' of cash - and much of the expenditure was on buying D78s at the scrap price, which would be recouped by selling them on for scrap if no orders for more 230s materialise.



What the interiors look like will be up to West Midlands Trains, not Adrian Shooter, Vivarail, 'they' or anyone else. From day one Vivarail has been clear that customers could specify the door and interior layout from a range of options. And the announcement includes the following line from WMR "I am sure our passengers will welcome the new look and feel of the carriages and the extra space" which might suggest a fairly extensive refit.

But given your dislike of the entire concept, WMR could presumably ask for 1+1 comfy armchair seating aligned with the windows thoughout and you would still criticise it.

And you would be right to think that, the point is though with metro style interior for starters your already at a disadvantage in that you have considerably mess about with the interior to turn into a half decent regional DMU, which in financial terms is likely to make it look even more expensive.

At the end of the day I think its a second rate product that's probably expensive for what it is, I think that's perfectly reasonable position to take, and expect many of the TOC's are of a similar view its their opinion that matters not mine. Ok they have sold 3 for a line where there isn't a lot of immediate alternatives except 150's which Northern have grabbed, but for other routes that don't have some Marton Vale's issues lets see how many they sell.

As far as I can gather, GWR don't want them, Anglia didn't get any preferring an entire new train build, Northern probably the Dft wouldn't accept them from the bidders given what was stated in the ITT so overall I think there is a message there.

 

[keith1879]

I know that this is true of most internet groups - but as a debating style insisting on the same argument over and over again like a child trying to have the last word doesn't really convince. I am not aiming this at anyone in particular - the technique seems to be remarkably rampant on this thread however. It should always be interesting to read other people's views - but when it gets to the point that all you have to do is look at the name of the poster to know more or less what will be said then it's a bit sad. I look forward with interest to see what these trains are like, whether any more will be sold, what develops from them and (to a lesser extent) what the commercial outcome will be. I think it's worth emphasising that this is a largely neutral viewpoint.