Is It Time To Lock People On Trains?

[njamescouk]

The problem is that some "adults" think they can walk on water. Maybe a sign saying "you are on CCTV, if you evacuate this train without instruction and assistance from railway staff you will be liable to a 50,000 pound fine, whether you survive or not" might help.

That said, after say half an hour, communication from the traincrew becomes very important and should be about what is happening or is being prepared. If there is no plan then nasty things can happen.

suspect the cctv was u/s along with everything else.

 

[fowler9]

Excellent post.

This should not be happening unless there is a PA fault and is unacceptable.

In other industries there have been extensive studies into the effects of confinement, lack of information, anxiety and human behaviour to this kind of situation. This includes real life modeling with actual volunteers- I worked with someone who did one in the maritime industry (as a result of the Costa Concordia disaster) and it was a real eyeopener how quickly rational people can start doing the most irrational things if they start to get anxious and aren't kept informed.

I have seen videos of how passengers behaved on the Concordia and its sobering.


As you correctly say reassurance is vital even if you have no updates to give.

Cheers mate. I was on a London Midland 350 that got held in Edge Hill station just after the land slip occurred in the cutting to Lime Street. The guard was brilliant. He made announcements every 5 or so minutes just to basically say "Look folks we don't know what is going on but its nothing to worry about". The atmosphere on the train was fine because we were kept informed, the guard was a legend. After about half an hour he told us that he had contacted control and that anyone who wanted to get off could depart by the rear cab door. I did so and decided to just get the bus home instead of going in to town. Excellent customer service.

As recently as last Monday I had a customer who had a problem with his boiler. I promised him a call by close of play on Tuesday with an update even if I had no news. I phoned him on Tuesday afternoon to tell him what I had been doing fearing the worst because I had no good news and the guy was made up just because I had called him and let him know what was happening. That is all it takes. Let people know what is happening.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yet another story of people releasing doors and walking down the tracks.

Is it time to stop the ability to open doors like this from the inside so this can't happen?
Yes, I understand fire, this and that, but it's almost becoming normal for people to do this.
Perhaps needs a couple of people to die right there on the tracks before the public realise this isn't a good idea - no matter what the customer thinks.

Well done, one of the most stupid comments I've read on this forum.

 

[Chris M]

But if self-evacuation isn't okay, how do you solve the problem?

There are exactly two ways to stop passengers self-evacuating:

1. Get the train moving before they do
2. Evacuate them before they do.

You can do things to increase the length of time before self-evacuation happens - as mentioned on here repeatedly the principle one is communication. Update people regularly and be honest and you can gain hours.

 

[Llanigraham]

Agreed. People should not be locked in anything (other than a plane in the air assuming no parachutes).

If I catch a train on the Ffestiniog, Welsh Highland, Vale of Rheidol and the Talyllyn I get locked in the carriages. That is done for the safety of the passengers. Are you suggesting that they are wrong to do so?
And funnily enough you will also find that you will often be locked inside a road coach.
Perhaps you need to reconsider your statement?

 

[MG11]

I have a massive fear of being stuck in lifts because of the remote nature of them. If I was stranded on a train, I wouldn't be so bothered because (in my extreme mind) there are always exit windows to get out if (if advised by the train crew). I can see how some passengers may essentially have a panic attack though. I have personal experience with panic attacks and the fight or flight mode really does set in. That does not excuse the majority of passengers, who try and evacuate just to get home in time for dinner. It's nearly always safer to remain on the train. I'm not sure what the legal standing would be on the OP's suggestion of 'locking' people on trains. I think the current situation generally works well.

 

[matt_world2004]

Maybe having the passenger side emergecy egress handle behind a break glass would delay the amount of time before people use it

 

[GW43125]

Those who don't know how the railways work don't understand whether the train is protected by signals in these situations or whether another train could cause an incident. After 90 minutes, another passenger was going to exit the train. We talked them down to activating the passcom instead. This suddenly generated action from both the guard and driver who were consumed with rage that the passcom had been activated. Why could they not have done a PA or at best walked through the train once in 90 minutes?

I was on a 450 once that got stuck outside Clapham Jn for around half an hour because of (presumably) a weather-related power cut.
The DC supply was operational at all times, however reaching the facilities was easier said than done (it was rather busy due to most trains off Woking being cancelled due to the weather).
450 aircon isn't exactly the best at coping with large numbers of people so it was really hot and sweaty. The guard and driver just hid in their cabs with the windows open and didn't say a word, even after someone pulled a passcomm. I had to phone friends to find out what was going on (we were in the cutting so phone signal patchy at best).

Seeing 455 drivers and guards stuck on the slows with droplight windows open just rubbed it in. I get quite severe anxiety so any longer than we were there and I would have absolutely lost it. I needed to get off. I'd also run out of water.

Had we been there any longer, we'd have had to open a door for our own safety. It may not be the answer you want but it's the truth. Someone having a major panic attack and potentially passing ouy in a cramped carriage or opening a door for fresh air when nobody's moving anyway. I know what I'd pick and that's the truth. All that would've been needed to stop us feeling like that is:
a) telling us what's going on and acknowledging we still had two live traincrew
b) aircon that keeps you cool and not sweaty when it's 20-odd degrees outside.

Hence it's perfectly understandable.

 

[GW43125]

If I catch a train on the Ffestiniog, Welsh Highland, Vale of Rheidol and the Talyllyn I get locked in the carriages. That is done for the safety of the passengers. Are you suggesting that they are wrong to do so?

In a lot of the situations above, the opening windows would be enough to stop people bailing.

 

[yorksrob]

A key thing for trains in the summer would be to have at least some windows openable with a T-key, as is the case on 158's and 159's. This should be introduced in all new stock.

 

[GW43125]

A key thing for trains in the summer would be to have at least some windows openable with a T-key, as is the case on 158's and 159's. This should be introduced in all new stock.

unfortunately, as was demostrated at Kentish town, the emergency quarterlights don't help in the slightest when you've got 80-100 people in a carriage

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, agreed, nearly all of them will happen once the train is in service. The problem is that they are then never tested properly again and they go in and out of service daily for the rest of eternity. A device that holds down a momentary button and a device that outputs an intermittent tone that is able to be clamped to a microphone would be the most crude retrofit to old stock with an audio path that cannot be intercepted (and has the advantage of testing all components including the microphone itself which could easily be a point of failure). To design this would take a small amount of time and the unit cost would be relatively low (this is not a guess, this is fact, there are off the shelf products for each feature here that could be redeveloped into a bespoke item or items). With a button held down where it is a momentary switch not a fixed switch and an audio transmitter outputting a constant tone or signal a member of staff can walk through the train to check all output devices are functioning. This doesn't have to be done separately, this can be switched on early on in the checks and checked accordingly as the pass through the train for other reasons.

How about something that sends out a test tone and "listens" for it via all the passcom microphones?

As an aside: Try getting out of a Meridian (and maybe a Voyager) when there's no battery power to the vestibule doors. Very hard! Even more so if the coach was on its side!

I don't remember if it was Southall or Ladbroke Grove but passengers trying to get out reported this with the much lighter vestibule doors on the Mk3. There is now a standard which says the doors should be bi-parting, or open in opposite directions at each end of the saloon, or be fitted with a removeable panel.

 

[yorksrob]

unfortunately, as was demostrated at Kentish town, the emergency quarterlights don't help in the slightest when you've got 80-100 people in a carriage

I suspect that what miniscule level of comfort there was, would have been much less without the open windows.

 

[6Gman]

I think the more relevant issue to address is whether there should be a mandatory evacuation threshold. 2 hours and if there's no obvious sign of improvement then the scene is turned over to the emergency services.

What makes you think that the "emergency services" (who exactly?) would be any more able to resolve the issue than the railway authorities?

 

[Bromley boy]

What makes you think that the "emergency services" (who exactly?) would be any more able to resolve the issue than the railway authorities?

Especially as the emergency services need to wait for a NR MOM before they venture onto the track.

 

[bramling]

Well they better not use most London tube trains as they have no ability to open the doors from inside in an emergency.

There is still an evacuation route however, via the drivers cabs at either end which can be accessed in emergency. Mainline trains don't have this as the cabs are locked with a railway key which in most cases has no emergency override facility.

 

[robbeech]

How about something that sends out a test tone and "listens" for it via all the passcom microphones?

Yes something like this would be ok, more complicated to retrofit to certain units I’m sure depending on whether each microphone is wired individually for identification purposes. Many output devices aren’t near them though so if one wasn’t working you may not get a reliable result.

 

[The Ham]

I was on a 450 once that got stuck outside Clapham Jn for around half an hour because of (presumably) a weather-related power cut.
The DC supply was operational at all times, however reaching the facilities was easier said than done (it was rather busy due to most trains off Woking being cancelled due to the weather).
450 aircon isn't exactly the best at coping with large numbers of people so it was really hot and sweaty. The guard and driver just hid in their cabs with the windows open and didn't say a word, even after someone pulled a passcomm. I had to phone friends to find out what was going on (we were in the cutting so phone signal patchy at best).

Seeing 455 drivers and guards stuck on the slows with droplight windows open just rubbed it in. I get quite severe anxiety so any longer than we were there and I would have absolutely lost it. I needed to get off. I'd also run out of water.

Had we been there any longer, we'd have had to open a door for our own safety. It may not be the answer you want but it's the truth. Someone having a major panic attack and potentially passing ouy in a cramped carriage or opening a door for fresh air when nobody's moving anyway. I know what I'd pick and that's the truth. All that would've been needed to stop us feeling like that is:
a) telling us what's going on and acknowledging we still had two live traincrew
b) aircon that keeps you cool and not sweaty when it's 20-odd degrees outside.

Hence it's perfectly understandable.

With no response to a passcom I'm supposed that no-one opted to contact the emergency services starting "I'm on a train, we've tried contacting the staff with no response, we are contacting you as we fear for their safety"

I bet the emergent services would want to have a word with those staff about wasting their time if there was nothing wrong other than not taking to their passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it would. Although it would fall down at the usual hurdle of nobody feeling able to justify the cost of retrofitting this to legacy stock (even though in many cases it’ll be around for several more decades).

I'm almost certain at least one type of modern EMU has this feature, it may be the Desiro or Electrostar. I'm sure I remember seeing a Youtube video of it having been erroneously started with passengers on. So if that PIS is fitted to older stock that will have it too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers mate. I was on a London Midland 350 that got held in Edge Hill station just after the land slip occurred in the cutting to Lime Street. The guard was brilliant. He made announcements every 5 or so minutes just to basically say "Look folks we don't know what is going on but its nothing to worry about". The atmosphere on the train was fine because we were kept informed, the guard was a legend. After about half an hour he told us that he had contacted control and that anyone who wanted to get off could depart by the rear cab door. I did so and decided to just get the bus home instead of going in to town. Excellent customer service.

TBH I think things should be more proactive than that. Once Control know of an issue that will not be resolved quickly, notify staff via their pagers of it and request that they release the doors if at a station where it is safe to do so (i.e. the train is platformed or manual SDO or UDS can be safely used).

When at a station where the train is platformed, it's to the TOC's benefit to let people off who want to get off, as there is no safety issue. The passengers who do get off and make their own arrangements reduce the cost to the TOC and the time needed to make arrangements for them.

That seems to be the policy on the south WCML; I've seen a Pendolino with doors released at Tring, for example.

 

[Wivenswold]

What makes you think that the "emergency services" (who exactly?) would be any more able to resolve the issue than the railway authorities?

"Emergency services" = BTP, Country Police and Fire Bridge & Ambulance is required.

There can be all sorts of medical issues arise from this sort of event, some people, like myself, would probably need a check up if stuck on a freezing train for 3 hours (I have no immune system, a severe cold can kill me). Fire Brigade and Police are far better equipped to assist with mass-detraining and rescue. They have greater nationwide coverage and more manpower than Network Rail. I was suggesting that instead of the rather worrying suggestion of locking passengers in a train without heating, water and toilet facilities, that the onus should be on the TOC/Network Rail to communicate satisfactorily and arrange detraining within a certain threshold.

I write as a commuter and a former British Rail Safety Team member.

 

[Chris M]

There is still an evacuation route however, via the drivers cabs at either end which can be accessed in emergency. Mainline trains don't have this as the cabs are locked with a railway key which in most cases has no emergency override facility.

As many (most?) mainline trains don't have end doors there is no actual advantage to exiting via the cab rather than a passenger door in most cases. Unlike in single-bore tube tunnels with no walkway. Interestingly perhaps, the DLR tunnels all have walkways and the trains have end doors and side doors than can be opened in an emergency.

TBH I think things should be more proactive than that. Once Control know of an issue that will not be resolved quickly, notify staff via their pagers of it and request that they release the doors if at a station where it is safe to do so (i.e. the train is platformed or manual SDO or UDS can be safely used).

When at a station where the train is platformed, it's to the TOC's benefit to let people off who want to get off, as there is no safety issue. The passengers who do get off and make their own arrangements reduce the cost to the TOC and the time needed to make arrangements for them.

That seems to be the policy on the south WCML; I've seen a Pendolino with doors released at Tring, for example.

I (and most of the rest of the train) were let off a London-bound FGW HST at West Drayton when the train stopped there while waiting for a fitter to come from Swindon to attend to a "bit of metal making a lot of noise beneath coach C". The doors weren't released immediately and I don't recall any announcements giving advice about whether to change or wait (but that could be my memory). I do know that the guard of the next up Thames Trains service (a 2 or 3 car turbo) had heard nothing from his control and so was not expecting so many people cramming themselves on a late morning service.
Veering off topic, but would the rescuing TOC get any money from the intercity TOC in this scenario - I can't imagine that ORCATS allocates any revenue from a Bristol-Paddington ticket to an all-stations service like this one in normal circumstances?

 

[Busaholic]

Simple answer - not now, not ever.

 

[fowler9]

TBH I think things should be more proactive than that. Once Control know of an issue that will not be resolved quickly, notify staff via their pagers of it and request that they release the doors if at a station where it is safe to do so (i.e. the train is platformed or manual SDO or UDS can be safely used).

When at a station where the train is platformed, it's to the TOC's benefit to let people off who want to get off, as there is no safety issue. The passengers who do get off and make their own arrangements reduce the cost to the TOC and the time needed to make arrangements for them.

That seems to be the policy on the south WCML; I've seen a Pendolino with doors released at Tring, for example.

Yeah I get what you mean but this guy was really good. Like I said previously I have been sat in the cutting down to Lime Street for over twenty minutes since with not a single announcement. I am a regular on the Northern services and some of the guards are brilliant.

 

[Pete_uk]

Lock people in?

Sure if you want to run the risk of someone dying through a panic attack. What happens if there is a accident?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Simple answer - not now, not ever.

Agreed.

Locking people into things causes deaths in case of fire. There is a huge body of evidence of this from years gone by.

The best solution, which is what we have now, is that you make self-evacuating a very deliberate action, e.g. by requiring break-glass/remove-cover and pulling a big lever.

 

[theironroad]

Ultimately when using public transport you hand over some control to other people , so the autonomy you have on a bike or in your own car is reduced.

If someone is so concerned about losing that control, I'd suggest not using planes, trains,coaches etc and driving where you can decide when to stop start, get in and out of your vehicle, though I'd suggest not doing it in the middle lane of slow moving traffic on the M25 as you won't be popular.

 

[theironroad]

Agreed.

Locking people into things causes deaths in case of fire. There is a huge body of evidence of this from years gone by.

The best solution, which is what we have now, is that you make self-evacuating a very deliberate action, e.g. by requiring break-glass/remove-cover and pulling a big lever.

Desiro 444/450 egresses were fitted with perspex covers that had to be broken before pulling the lever. However, vandals kept breaking them and abusing the egress so all the covers were removed.

 

[Raul_Duke]

It would seem to me to make sense to be able to press a button to generate a continuous test announcement and walk through the train, then do a manual one and check you hear it from the cab - that would cover all bases.

This is something you can do with a HST.

 

[6Gman]

"Emergency services" = BTP, Country Police and Fire Bridge & Ambulance is required.

There can be all sorts of medical issues arise from this sort of event, some people, like myself, would probably need a check up if stuck on a freezing train for 3 hours (I have no immune system, a severe cold can kill me). Fire Brigade and Police are far better equipped to assist with mass-detraining and rescue. They have greater nationwide coverage and more manpower than Network Rail. I was suggesting that instead of the rather worrying suggestion of locking passengers in a train without heating, water and toilet facilities, that the onus should be on the TOC/Network Rail to communicate satisfactorily and arrange detraining within a certain threshold.

I write as a commuter and a former British Rail Safety Team member.

I agree with most of this, but trains do have an unfortunate habit of breaking down in remote locations with poor access.