Passengers stuck on trains overnight in New Forest (01/03 - 02/03)

[tsr]

They generally don't fly at night. You cannot see powerlines for landing sites.

Some of them do in the area in question - though not necessarily in that weather.

 

[Llanigraham]

Surely the Army would - it is after all Military Aid to the Civil Power/Community. This is part of the reason we have the armed forces.

Oh they will turn out, but from our experience they want to know who is paying.

 

[SamYeager]

Having been involved in similar situations, one of the first questions asked by MoD nowadays is "Who is paying?"

Unfortunately as generally speaking budgets and costings are so tight in the public sector today everything is recharged to the body that commissions it to offset the department budget.

Any armed forces commander who didn't ensure that costs were being covered would certainly be in hot water.

 

[Llanigraham]

And a railways job is to get people between two fixed points on a timetabled service not leave them in a forest overnight one of these mistakes is more serious than another

Gosh it must be wonderful in your perfect world!
They didn't set out to get stuck but circumstances resulted in it happening.

 

[Wychwood93]

There were phone line issues which initially hampered communication between the panel and WICC, but a plan was formulated to have the failed unit rescued by the one behind (as you would), which also unfortunately failed after very slow progress initially with several intermittent false starts. There were issues with platform occupation back at Southampton by the time both trains were declared a failure by the driver (which was gone 0100 by then) due to all the trains now going nowhere and Northam now full. Evacuation plans were then drawn up with request for help put out to BTP who had no unit available. Various attempts were made to source replacement road transport in various forms and accommodation but to no avail, so evacuating all 200+ stranded passengers would then deposit most of them at Bournemouth station, still stranded with insufficient shelter, and a decision was made to keep them onboard and concentrate effort on getting things moving with intermittent line light and sufficient de-icer for the shoegears. Unfortunately attempts at getting trains moving were unsuccessful. Road access was nigh on impossible. The option to deploy the diesel unit on the Lymington shuttle for evacuation was also explored, but put to bed due to a set of frozen points. The decision was then made to have 1O24 as the rescue train with the clock now at 0500. No MOM were able to attend for various reasons. Two members of PWAY attended at 0230 who helped with de-icing tasks, etc.

There was one error I could see, in that the driver of 1O24 missed one of the stranded trains due allegedly to miscommunication, which meant he had to reverse back and pick up those passengers, delaying the rescue operation by about an hour.

From what I can see, lots of decisions were made promptly the moment it became clear that a proposed course of action would not work over the course of the incident. No, it didn't work out as well as everyone would have hoped, and yes, with hindsight it may have been better to simply have 1O24 make a WDM the moment the first train failed and take all passengers, but hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? If that didn't work out then I am sure criticism would have been forthcoming in why this course of action was taken instead of trying to get the culprit train moving since it had line light from time to time, delaying everything by a few hours. Had 100+ (possibly more) passengers been stranded at Bournemouth station, now exposed to the elements at 4am, I am sure similar criticism would also have been sent the same way.

I do not have fingers in my ear. Not once did I say the WICC were perfect in their handling of this incident, or any other ones, far from it. Something definitely went very wrong last night the way things turned out, and I'm sure plenty of things can be learned from the incident. It is your allegation that they cannot make decisions promptly that is patently incorrect in this case.

As I said time and time again, I have no problem whatsoever with criticism, as it is a great source for learning. What I will not accept, and will robustly challenge, is unfair criticism.

bb21, as ChiefPlanner said, an excellent response. From what I have gathered during the day it would seem that the 1W75, 1705 Waterloo-Weymouth ended up stranded in the berth of BC137 signal, roughly near Hawthorn Lane which is about a half mile from our bungalow in Burton. A steep embankment at that location and not easy to facilitate moving PAX at around 01.00 this morning. The 1W35, 1735 Waterloo-Weymouth, appears to have become stranded somewhere beyond the berth for BH370 signal. A BBC clip earlier had a reporter indicating 'the stranded train' near an undertrack footpath. By means of local knowledge and bingmaps this would have been in the vicinity of the sub-station on the down side at approx. Mp80. The shallow embankment there could, perhaps, have been used by the emergency services via ladders etc. to effect removing the PAX. This would have relied on emergency services being available and the particular local conditions at the time. The words 'probably a tad dodgy' spring to mind for the time and location. The XC 1O24 would indeed have appeared to arrive at Bournemouth some 4 hours late - had I still been 'on the job' then I could replay time and see what went where etc. and how hindsight could have resolved it all and then everybody would have arrived home much earlier! The fact is you cannot plan for everything - and, as many of you are more than aware, the railway does a lot of planning for 'events'. In this particular incident myself and my wife were lucky - Miss Saigon at the Mayflower in Southampton and we ended up on the 20ish late 17.24 (1605 1W73 ex-Wloo) - by then the weather was not good and we were initially on the late 16.24 from platform 4, no crew, and then the 16.56 (?) from platform 3 before I spotted the 17.24 coming into platform 2 - first stop Brock, Eastleigh would let us go first, and they did!

 

[Elecman]

Sorry to go off-topic, but what treatment regime in 2018 doesn't allow you to have more than a day's insulin with you? Unless you're on a particularly high dosage regime, most modern delivery methods have a capacity that lasts around a week.

I will echo the posters who have said to take emergency supplies. Fun-size bags of skittles are handy as they're 13g sugar and will fit in pretty much any pocket of a coat or bag- and unlike Dextro tablets they won't turn into dust in the pocket. Always stock up on them at Halloween!
You really shouldn't be going out without emergency sugar though, you're taking your life in your hands.



Agree about being prepared. I always have multiple emergency sugars in my bag, and the insulin pens/cartridges last 5-7 days. Failing that (and I have on occasion gone out without an important component of the whole shebang) would the first-aid boxes on trains have glucose gel in?

No First Aid boxes do not have glucose gel in them.

 

[AlanFry1]

How are these customers being compensated for this? Could lawsuits be filed against SWR?

 

[theironroad]

There were phone line issues which initially hampered communication between the panel and WICC, but a plan was formulated to have the failed unit rescued by the one behind (as you would), which also unfortunately failed after very slow progress initially with several intermittent false starts. There were issues with platform occupation back at Southampton by the time both trains were declared a failure by the driver (which was gone 0100 by then) due to all the trains now going nowhere and Northam now full. Evacuation plans were then drawn up with request for help put out to BTP who had no unit available. Various attempts were made to source replacement road transport in various forms and accommodation but to no avail, so evacuating all 200+ stranded passengers would then deposit most of them at Bournemouth station, still stranded with insufficient shelter, and a decision was made to keep them onboard and concentrate effort on getting things moving with intermittent line light and sufficient de-icer for the shoegears. Unfortunately attempts at getting trains moving were unsuccessful. Road access was nigh on impossible. The option to deploy the diesel unit on the Lymington shuttle for evacuation was also explored, but put to bed due to a set of frozen points. The decision was then made to have 1O24 as the rescue train with the clock now at 0500. No MOM were able to attend for various reasons. Two members of PWAY attended at 0230 who helped with de-icing tasks, etc.

There was one error I could see, in that the driver of 1O24 missed one of the stranded trains due allegedly to miscommunication, which meant he had to reverse back and pick up those passengers, delaying the rescue operation by about an hour.

From what I can see, lots of decisions were made promptly the moment it became clear that a proposed course of action would not work over the course of the incident. No, it didn't work out as well as everyone would have hoped, and yes, with hindsight it may have been better to simply have 1O24 make a WDM the moment the first train failed and take all passengers, but hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? If that didn't work out then I am sure criticism would have been forthcoming in why this course of action was taken instead of trying to get the culprit train moving since it had line light from time to time, delaying everything by a few hours. Had 100+ (possibly more) passengers been stranded at Bournemouth station, now exposed to the elements at 4am, I am sure similar criticism would also have been sent the same way.

I do not have fingers in my ear. Not once did I say the WICC were perfect in their handling of this incident, or any other ones, far from it. Something definitely went very wrong last night the way things turned out, and I'm sure plenty of things can be learned from the incident. It is your allegation that they cannot make decisions promptly that is patently incorrect in this case.

As I said time and time again, I have no problem whatsoever with criticism, as it is a great source for learning. What I will not accept, and will robustly challenge, is unfair criticism.

I appreciate your candid post.

I don't want to bang on about it as it makes little difference in the long run and generally control and management aren't interested in input from certain grades in the real world.
The A31 through the forest was shut from the outset and buses cancelled so road transport was never really an option.

Hopefully, (though I'd like to be more optimistic) that lessons will be learnt as there are too many incidents where what starts as a issue with one train or piece of infrastructure ends up with hundreds or thousands people being delayed on trains from hours.

 

[AlterEgo]

Any armed forces commander who didn't ensure that costs were being covered would certainly be in hot water.

So are we saying that Military Aid to the Civil Power/Community is charged to an agency?

I find it difficult to believe although I concede I have no specific experience or knowledge in this area.

 

[theironroad]

Surprised the "spirit of the blitz" cliche has not been wheeled out yet.

Haha, not quite the blitz but:

 

[robbeech]

I think there are some considerable issues that are not being helped from both sides at Lewisham currently. Polar (pardon the pun) opposite information between drivers and social media. Twitter saying it's all powered up and ready to roll. Drivers trying to get people off and on trains off the tracks still. Not an easy situation but i can see both sides of the argument. (I can't see the side of the argument that involves getting off of a train onto a live track though.)

 

[muz379]

Think some people posting in this thread need to put things into perspective . The weather conditions yesterday would have completely ruled out a rescue of pax on this service by road ,I believe some emergency services did visit the train at some point and would have been satisfied that staying on the train was safer than any alternative .

The controllers at the TOC or network rail would not have wanted to leave a train stranded with their employees as well as passengers in sub zero temperatures knowing that there would be no heat and light . But solutions in situations like this do take time to arrive at and as bb21 has alluded to in his explanation of events the easier solutions would have been looked at first such as assisting the failure with a unit behind , plans that fail such as "deploy the diesel unit on the Lymington shuttle" waste valuable time but are unavoidable . exploring that option would have involved Toc control contacting depot managers to source crew for the unit and organising the logistics of getting crew and probably other staff to the unit . Once all that has been put into place to find that the plan then fails because of frozen point would have been a major set back .The plan formulated to use 1O24 could have quite easily fallen flat as well , what if the crew didn't have enough hours left to execute the plan, what if that unit had succumbed to the effects of weather in other ways . Or weather conditions worsened meaning that the line was now blocked by a snow drift . You never know until you try but obviously in severely adverse conditions such as this things are not always going to go to plan

I have seen plenty of instances of front line staff complaining about both TOC and NR control , its easy to do when you are at the sharp end but in many instances I think those on the sharp end are only doing what customers do when they take their frustration out on the nearest person in uniform . Once you put it into perspective and consider the number of incidents that control would have been dealing with at the time and the number of other trains they are also responsible for its easy to understand why things take time .

I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

In that instance you tell the guard of the train when they inform you that the train is currently stranded and assistance from control is being sought , that way they can communicate this information to control who can then factor this into any plans .

Maybe in future when you know conditions are bad and are travelling it would be advisable to come prepared . I took extra winter gear out yesterday when working trains because I knew that failing in a remote location or having to spend some time outside during an incident was a possibility .

But sometimes for me, glucose tablets aren't enough for me to keep my sugar up, and not just me, what if someone had a cardiac arrest? I'm not sure if every train has a defibrillator, if this one hadn't they would've been long gone by the time a chopper would reach them!

so bring things that are enough to keep your blood sugar up .

if someone had a cardiac arrest then unfortunately its likely that if severe enough they would have died .Just had they been stranded in a car . The red and amber weather warnings are no joke and are serious . People have lost their lives during this weather , this would have sadly been one of those instances .

 

[45669]

Any armed forces commander who didn't ensure that costs were being covered would certainly be in hot water.

And there's me thinking that we all paid for the Armed Forces through our taxes! How naïve is that?!

 

[Randomer]

So are we saying that Military Aid to the Civil Power/Community is charged to an agency?

I find it difficult to believe although I concede I have no specific experience or knowledge in this area.

Yes it will be charged and the cost can be substantial (e.g. support helicopters come at over £20K an hour); either directly to the agency or in the case of some specialist areas funding will be provided to the MOD in advance by the relevant government department. Essentially the MOD and treasury got fed up with agencies first answer to a crisis being call in the military rather than being used as a last resort. Put into effect by the civil contingencies act 2004 (hence why fire cover during strikes is now contracted out).

Only big exception is when there is an immediate threat to life e.g a royal navy vessel being diverted to a vessel in distress by HM Coastguard (as any other vessel could be).

 

[BestWestern]

Haha, not quite the blitz but:

I saw that and thought it looked like a low rent halloween party!

 

[cjmillsnun]

How are these customers being compensated for this? Could lawsuits be filed against SWR?

I assume they'd get delay repay. As SWR cannot be responsible for weather, there should be no lawsuits against SWR.

 

[bb21]

I appreciate your candid post.

I don't want to bang on about it as it makes little difference in the long run and generally control and management aren't interested in input from certain grades in the real world.
The A31 through the forest was shut from the outset and buses cancelled so road transport was never really an option.

Hopefully, (though I'd like to be more optimistic) that lessons will be learnt as there are too many incidents where what starts as a issue with one train or piece of infrastructure ends up with hundreds or thousands people being delayed on trains from hours.

No, I appreciate your input, really. It is good to have a discussion, albeit heated, sometimes. It gets me to really think about what my arguments are sometimes and whether they always make sense, with often surprising results including challenges to my own ideas/perception/opinion sometimes.

It is a difficult one. Often what you find is that you have to pester and/or really force your point for potential changes, despite the fact that benefits may be very obvious and that everyone agrees. From a front line point of view, it can sometimes appear that no notice is taken of suggestions forwarded at all, with no acknowledgement and/or feedback. While true that many ideas are not, because there are many ideas floating around, learning does take place, albeit more slowly than I would personally have liked, but a certain level of stubbornness is inherent in the industry across many functions, often involving lots of red-tape and the resistence from the general workforce (because we have always done it this way). There are lots of dedicated people in the industry who try their very best to improve things, and there is plenty of frustration around too w.r.t. how things are working at various points in time. I am relatively lucky in the respect that sometimes I can force my points with some heads of function as part of my job, but it can be incredibly hard work.

I'm glad we have a truce.

 

[Llanigraham]

No First Aid boxes do not have glucose gel in them.

Not a requirement in any First Aid Box.

 

[Domh245]

I assume they'd get delay repay. As SWR cannot be responsible for weather, there should be no lawsuits against SWR.

I would rather hope that SWR go above and beyond delay repay for those who were stuck on any incident trains - free travel vouchers, compensation, etc, as good will if nothing else.

 

[Llanigraham]

And there's me thinking that we all paid for the Armed Forces through our taxes! How naïve is that?!

The fact that you are a tax payer gives you no rights to expect the Armed Forces to attend any event for nothing.

I would rather hope that SWR go above and beyond delay repay for those who were stuck on any incident trains - free travel vouchers, compensation, etc, as good will if nothing else.

Why? it wasn't there fault it snowed.

 

[bb21]

I would rather hope that SWR go above and beyond delay repay for those who were stuck on any incident trains - free travel vouchers, compensation, etc, as good will if nothing else.

I would imagine anyone stuck on those trains would get a more substantial compensation "package" (if it can be called that) than Delay Repay.

A couple of free First Class tickets per person would not go down badly, as a minimum, really, or a substantial offer in travel vouchers (three-figure sum on a rough guess) but I don't profess to know what they plan to do.

 

[Mag_seven]

Haha, not quite the blitz but:

Actually I think now I probably meant "Dunkirk Spirit".

 

[Wychwood93]

I would imagine anyone stuck on those trains would get a more substantial compensation "package" (if it can be called that) than Delay Repay.

A couple of free First Class tickets per person would not go down badly, as a minimum, really, or a substantial offer in travel vouchers (three-figure sum on a rough guess) but I don't profess to know what they plan to do.

I agree with the second para. and was indeed thinking somewhat the same earlier. Unless things have changed, then I would assume that the 'bill' which would be a result of external non-TOC issues under the Delay Attribution process, would end up with NR. The taxpayer. Would/could a TOC claim back the justified tickets from NR or would the latter grumble a bit?

Edit - would taxpayers be entitled to grumble given that PAX were advised not to travel? The SWR website said earlier today that it could not ensure that journeys could/would be completed given associated weather conditions (or similar). The underlying advice was not to travel.

 

[AlanFry1]

I would imagine anyone stuck on those trains would get a more substantial compensation "package" (if it can be called that) than Delay Repay.

A couple of free First Class tickets per person would not go down badly, as a minimum, really, or a substantial offer in travel vouchers (three-figure sum on a rough guess) but I don't profess to know what they plan to do.

It depends though - the issue with a lack of water, food, heating, could nothing be made of that, just out of interest? Have there also been any similar experiences with delays of that length - maybe due to summer weather?

 

[ainsworth74]

So are we saying that Military Aid to the Civil Power/Community is charged to an agency?

I find it difficult to believe although I concede I have no specific experience or knowledge in this area.

As per Joint Doctrine Publication 02 UK Operations the Defence Contribution to Resilience and Security:

2.28 HM Treasury rules direct that government departments must charge for services that do not form part of their funded tasks and that departments must not profit from activity carried out on behalf of another department. With a few exceptions, MACA (Military Assistance to the Civilian Authorities) activity is not funded within the MOD budget and is conducted on a repayment basis.

Source

Though it does go on to say that, in the event of imminent threat to life, costs will be waived.

 

[philthetube]

How are these customers being compensated for this? Could lawsuits be filed against SWR?

of course they can sue, and if they can prove negligence they would win, just like you can sue spurs because you go to be entertained and .......

 

[bb21]

Excellent and honest summary. Appreciate that.

Do we know why more MPVs weren’t sent down that way? Lack of Resources or poor judgement?

MPV booked at Brockenhurst at 2128 but obviously stuck behind the failed trains.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O70653/2018/03/01/advanced

Not sure whether they would have been able to run it earlier but it really isn't one of my specialist subjects.

 

[AlanFry1]

of course they can sue, and if they can prove negligence they would win, just like you can sue spurs because you go to be entertained and .......

Now now...

 

[bb21]

It depends though - the issue with a lack of water, food, heating, could nothing be made of that, just out of interest? Have there also been any similar experiences with delays of that length - maybe due to summer weather?

What is it that you are looking for then?

 

[colchesterken]

I would have thought they could have got a diesel and some coaches from Eastleigh to run to collect the people
either from the other track or go close up and get the people off with ladders
the problem now seems to be to fragmented too many cooks and no fat controller, and no emergency back up