End of (some) timetables?

[Nicholas43]

Sir Peter Hendy hopes the timetable will become irrelevant on well-served lines, eg London-Bristol.

When Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway both become 15 minute services, will
people look at a timetable? Unlikely. These services will be more frequent that the outer end
of the Metropolitan Line!
The ticketing implications are major, but as I’ve said, reform is overdue anyway in my view.
The ticketing system should be led by passenger behaviour, not act as a constraint to it.

From his George Bradshaw address, 2018.
https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Sir-Peter-Hendy-George-Bradshaw-Address.pdf

 

[Hadders]

That’s fine but you need to consider:

- is the calling pattern consistent on each service. If not there will still be a need for a timetable.
- Advance Fares reduce the service to the booked train only.

 

[Mollman]

Don't forget it would have to be every 15 minute from start of service to the end of service.

 

[Busaholic]

That address had the authentic voice of Peter Hendy: the minimum of 'management speak' interspersed with pithy, thought-out arguments, and unafraid of mildly controversial topics. His father may not have been a railwayman, but he was certainly a purchaser of railway books as I sold him quite a few from my shop not far from the family home in Cornwall. When I heard, a long rime later, that Peter was Jack's son and was head of a newly privatised London bus company, I was very interested and got to meet him on a handful of occasions, including a time when he very kindly showed me some of his bus operations at close hand. He went on to greater things at TfL and managed to survive working for first Ken Livingstone then Boris Johnson without coming to blows with either (no mean feat!). TfL's loss was NR's gain, even though he may seem less appreciated there.

By the way, and having read the full address, I don't think 'ditch the timetable' was the main thrust of it at all: it was a metaphor for the fact that, if you just missed a train, it needn't ruin your day: the next one would be along pretty soon.

I'd be particularly interested in knowing what he has in mind for the ticketing system: I suspect something radical, rather than mere tweeking.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a lot more in Peter Hendy's talk than the prospect of abolishing timetables.
Quite a vision, even if it sounds a bit too much like London Underground for me.
He's banking quite a lot on the success of the digital railway.

He mentioned changing the platform indicators at Glasgow Central LL to show waiting time instead of the fixed timetable, as happens on LU.
Personally I don't like that approach, it indicates a lack of precision in the operation.
Merseyrail use it too.
Imagine Paddington showing just first and last trains to Bristol and the average frequency, and a countdown timer.

 

[Mag_seven]

He mentioned changing the platform indicators at Glasgow Central LL to show waiting time instead of the fixed timetable, as happens on LU.
Personally I don't like that approach, it indicates a lack of precision in the operation.

And covers up late running to the casual observer .

 

[GW43125]

He mentioned changing the platform indicators at Glasgow Central LL to show waiting time instead of the fixed timetable, as happens on LU.

It happens at Clapham Jn too and I hate it.
If your friend is coming in on a certain train, it's helpful to know what train is rolling in as it could be theirs, it could be something else woefully late. Who knows.

 

[Art1983]

Isn't there a whole department at NR dedicated to timetable planning? Bet they were glad to hear that.....not.

 

[6Gman]

He's banking quite a lot on the success of the digital railway.

Well. what could possibly go wrong ?

 

[Dentonian]

Obviously, a London-only (including its main catchment areas) thread by implication, but this would replicate the idea with Manchester Metrolink, where indeed full service levels run from first thing in the morning to last thing at night. To some extent, it is used in the bus industry as well, but that was partly motivated by hiding "duplicates" and is slowly disappearing as services are cut.

 

[6Gman]

Isn't there a whole department at NR dedicated to timetable planning? Bet they were glad to hear that.....not.

The timetable (i.e. the Working Timetable) will still need to be planned.

 

[waynemorrell]

It happens at Clapham Jn too and I hate it.
If your friend is coming in on a certain train, it's helpful to know what train is rolling in as it could be theirs, it could be something else woefully late. Who knows.

I couldn’t agree more. Back in the good old days we used to know the headcodes (southern region).
ie Down London showed a single “2” local services “63” or “64” ect, depending on calling pattern. Can’t remember exactly after all these years.

 

[radamfi]

A high frequency service on as many lines as possible would mean that many more journey opportunities involving connections become attractive as long connection times would no longer be a problem. The Netherlands are in the process of rolling out a 10 minute service on many major routes over the next few years.

 

[Dentonian]

A high frequency service on as many lines as possible would mean that many more journey opportunities involving connections become attractive as long connection times would no longer be a problem. The Netherlands are in the process of rolling out a 10 minute service on many major routes over the next few years.

Obvious question - who is going to pay for it?

 

[radamfi]

Obvious question - who is going to pay for it?

A mix of the taxpayer and fare payer, as usual with the railways. If demand continues to rise as it has done in recent years then high frequency will become a necessity to avoid overcrowding.

 

[MontyP]

Seems fine in theory - turn up and go is a noble aspiration. But even on a high intensity service such as the SWR inner suburbans, it only really works as far as Raynes Park (where the indicators already display a countdown for the next Waterloo services anyway) due to the proliferation of branches after that. There are at least 8 different service patterns, none of which are more frequent than twice-hourly. I wouldn’t want the timetable abolished if I Lived in somewhere like Tolworth or Berrylands where there is only a train every 30 mins. Even when (if?) Crossrail 2 increases the frequency on these routes, they will serve different destinations (core tunnel vs Waterloo) somI can’t see how this works.

 

[al78]

Is there enough capacity on the lines for services so frequent, you could just turn up whenever and not have to wait more than 10-15 minutes?

How would it work when lines have many branches, e.g. the Brighton main line has branches east and west at Redhill, and at Three Bridges there is the branch to Southampton via Horsham. How do you run frequent services down the mainline and all the branches? Do you have regular services that only go up and down the main line which connect with frequent services from Redhill to Reading, and Three Bridges to Southampton, and Wivelsfield to Eastbourne?

 

[Wombat]

My local station has trains every 15 minutes to Waterloo during off-peak hours. I still look at the timetable, because I don't want to arrive just as a train is leaving and have to sit on the platform for 14 minutes.

 

[swt_passenger]

It happens at Clapham Jn too and I hate it.
If your friend is coming in on a certain train, it's helpful to know what train is rolling in as it could be theirs, it could be something else woefully late. Who knows.

What proportion of passengers arriving at Clapham Junction do you think are being met?

 

[cuccir]

My local station has trains every 15 minutes to Waterloo during off-peak hours. I still look at the timetable, because I don't want to arrive just as a train is leaving and have to sit on the platform for 14 minutes.

Yes, a 'Turn up and Go' probably only works for most people at frequencies of under 10 minutes. If there's a 15 minute gap and one service runs 5 minutes late: well that's a good period of time waiting that could have been spent in work, with friends, or whatever.

I have been wondering if I will pay the same attention to the timetable for my commute, Durham-Newcastle, when that becomes 5tph; it will become much more easy to just show up at the station.

But even if a small number of services or routes between stations get that sort of frequency, 90% of the rail network is unlikely to do so...

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As long as there are Advance fares there will be timetables. This is just blue sky thinking without any grounding in reality. Similarly with the HS2 routes, as long as train-specific fares are offered then the frequency will never be a true Metro-style service.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the Bristol example doesn’t really stand up anyway, wasn’t it established from the draft timetables that the 4 tph from Temple Meads would not be equally spaced and would effectively be a 2 tph fast and a 2 tph slower service that would almost be caught up by Paddington? So people would see it as a 2 tph service. Also, everyone needing intermediate stations would still need the timetable to ensure the call existed on the route taken by their train.

Saying that “some people making journeys over the full route will not need to look at the timetable” isn’t quite so snappy though...

 

[northwichcat]

If you have a connecting train then it's certainly relevant what times trains turn up. For instance, Leeds/Huddersfield-Manchester is currently every 15 minutes but I for one check the timetable because the onward service I catch from Manchester is only hourly.

It's actually one of the common complaints with Metrolink that they don't advertise times, it might be people making a journey from A to B on a single Metrolink tram don't need one but if your making a connection it's more relevant.

 

[waynemorrell]

It's actually one of the common complaints with Metrolink that they don't advertise times, it might be people making a journey from A to B on a single Metrolink tram don't need one but if your making a connection it's more relevant.

You could try something like the Traveline app, it takes the planned frequency of the trams into account when producing an itinerary. Not being in the area I can’t vouch for its accuracy though.

I did a test journey plan from Bury Town Hall to Chester station. (See attached screenshot).

 

[northwichcat]

You could try something like the Traveline app, it takes the planned frequency of the trams into account when producing an itinerary. Not being in the area I can’t vouch for its accuracy though.

I did a test journey plan from Bury Town Hall to Chester station. (See attached screenshot).

View attachment 43368

The problem with Metrolink is they are more interested in keeping trams spaced out than running to times. If the working timetable shows xx:00 departure it's possible the tram might leave at xx:58 or it's possible it might wait until xx:02 until departing. Then you may get a cancelled tram or a service terminating short and if the previous one left early or the following one is late that can leave what seems like a long gap.

I also prefer for journey planners to tell me the distance to walk, rather than suggest how long they think it should take to walk.

 

[waynemorrell]

The problem with Metrolink is they are more interested in keeping trams spaced out than running to times. If the working timetable shows xx:00 departure it's possible the tram might leave at xx:58 or it's possible it might wait until xx:02 until departing. Then you may get a cancelled tram or a service terminating short and if the previous one left early or the following one is late that can leave what seems like a long gap.

Understood. Not vary familiar with trams tbh, have used Metrolink only twice, Nottingham and Croydon a few times but it was just on a turn up and go basis.

I also prefer for journey planners to tell me the distance to walk, rather than suggest how long they think it should take to walk.

Agreed, I don’t walk very fast at all and take the walking timings on journey planners with a pinch of salt. Maybe they just go with the average?

 

[Dentonian]

A mix of the taxpayer and fare payer, as usual with the railways. If demand continues to rise as it has done in recent years then high frequency will become a necessity to avoid overcrowding.

As I feared.