Hattersley - Fixed Penalty Notice

[Paul Drury]

Hello

I am looking for some advice of the best course of action to take. Recently I boarded the train at Hattersley station to travel to Hadfield. At the time the train station office was closed and there was also no ticket machine facility available at the station, so I boarded the train in the expectation on purchasing a ticket from the conductor. By the time I had reached Glossop, the conductor had not come out of his room, so when he got out to change ends at Glossop I asked about a ticket and he said that he would come down once he was settled back in. He never came down. As I got off at Hadfield I could see the inspectors waiting just outside the doors of Hadfield station checking peoples tickets. I walked through the ticket office at Hadfield and approached the inspectors with my wallet open in order to purchase a ticket and they refused and said that I had left the station without a valid ticket and had therefore committed an offence. they would not let me turn around and buy a ticket from the machine, outside the station (which I was stood right next to) and they would not allow me to go back in the door and get one. They said that because I had boarded at an unmanned station with no machine that I would be asked to pay the standard fare. I have now explained this in writing to Northern Rail and they still feel it fit to send me a Fixed Penalty Notice for £80 plus the fare, saying that they had evidence that indicates that travelled without paying a fare (correct) but that was with the intent of avoiding that fare (quite the contrary).
I feel aggrieved that I should have to pay this penalty when I saw the inspectors before I left the station and in all innocence felt in was ok to buy a ticket from them, much as you can when you visit Manchester Piccadilly and find yourself in the same situation.
Please can you advise me as to whether I should take this matter further or just pay the fine
Regards Paul

 

[londonbridge]

I would sugest paying the FPN in order to avoid the amount due escalating, but also appealing on the basis that the ticket office at Hadfield was your first opportunity to pay and it shouldn't make any difference whether you attempt to purchase from an open window or a machine. (assuming there was an open window)?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Was the ticket office open at Hadfield? Did you walk past the open ticket office before you were stopped?

The law is you should purchase at the first available opportunity. If Hadfield ticket office was open, the opportunity was there. If you walked past it then they've got you bang to rights.

Explain your situation, definitely, but be prepared to pay the £80 "penalty fake" (it is NOT a Penalty Fare, a PCN or a fine, it is an offer by Northern to not prosecute you in exchange for eighty notes).

That all said, I'd share your aggravation at the behaviour of Northern. It's well documented on here how shoddily they behave.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What was the day and time? National Rail indicates Hadfield is staffed till 1945 Monday to Saturday.

 

[lyndhurst25]

What was the day and time? National Rail indicates Hadfield is staffed till 1945 Monday to Saturday.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/HDF/details.html

actually says that it's open 0710 to 1010 Monday to Friday only, and then immediately contradicts itself by saying the times are 0600 to 1945 Monday to Saturday.

 

[Darandio]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/HDF/details.html

actually says that it's open 0710 to 1010 Monday to Friday only, and then immediately contradicts itself by saying the times are 0600 to 1945 Monday to Saturday.

It also claims there are ticket machines, but i'm not so certain. Can anyone with a knowledge of the station confirm or deny?

 

[lyndhurst25]

The OP says that there was a ticket machine at the destination station. He also says that he walked through the ticket office, so presumably the building was open at the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It also claims there are ticket machines, but i'm not so certain. Can anyone with a knowledge of the station confirm or deny?

I don't think Northern's TVMs do remote issue do they? So a TVM at your destination is useless. A reversed ticket is not a valid one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The OP says that there was a ticket machine at the destination station. He also says that he walked through the ticket office, so presumably the building was open at the time.

The building at Bletchley is open 24/7 and is the only way to access the platforms, the ticket office, toilets and cafe are only open during the day. Nothing saying other stations won't be the same - is Hadfield?

 

[Darandio]

I don't think Northern's TVMs do remote issue do they? So a TVM at your destination is useless. A reversed ticket is not a valid one.

I'm not talking about the destination, i'm talking about the origin station.

 

[scrapy]

I'm not talking about the destination, i'm talking about the origin station.

The origin was Hattersley which the OP said had no TVM or open ticket office.

For those not familiar with Hadfield, passengers leaving the station have to walk through the ticket office with the ticket window facing them and obvious to exit the station. There is also an external side gate which is locked unless the ticket office is closed. The ticket machine is outside the booking office exit to the car park. The ticket office is open until 19.45 and after this time the building is locked up.

Generally the RPIs doing this type of operation (or sting if you prefer) will wait in the car park. Most passengers on the platform wont be able to see them until they pass through the ticket hall and turn left into the car park at which time they have passed the very obvious place to pay although if alighting from the very front doors of the train you may be able to see them over the gate from the platform. The layout can be quite clearly on the main Wikipedia page for Hadfield station. The RPIs stand a few metres off the right hand side of the picture.

What won't go in the OPs favour is that by the sound of it the ticket office was open and the OP walked past it before going out into the car park and encountering the RPIs. The TVM is irrelevant as it wouldn't have sold the ticket the OP needed anyway and he would have also passed it before encountering the RPIs. Also I see no byelaw that the OP has broken as there was no facilities at the origin station. The bad news about this is that only leaves Northern an option of a RORA prosecution. However the positive side of this is that Northern have to prove that the OP intended to avoid payment. Their only (but very strong) argument will be that the OP walked past an open ticket office and left the station without buying a ticket. The OP can argue that they approached the conductor to pay and also approached the ticket inspectors to pay although the ticket inspectors account may be different.

What would also be useful would be a bit more information on the encounter with the RPI. Firstly did they have a bodycam?as this could provide vital evidence of the OPs intentions if the matter went to court. Secondly were you given any paperwork or asked to sign anything? Thirdly, Did the RPIs give you any demand for payment or was this sent by the prosecutions department? Did they clarify what standard fare meant? When asked to give your version of events did you give exactly the same account of what happened to them as you have on here? And finally were you ever asked to pay a lesser amount, either by the inspectors or prosecutions and this has escalated due to non payment?

At the end of the day this prosecution probably could be successfully fought if the OP went to court. However it all boils down to whos' account is believed most and whether the court believes that when the OP walked past the first opportunity to pay (ticket office) that the OP did so with the intention of buying a ticket or of walking off without paying. Personally I wouldn't want the worry and possible criminal conviction and would pay the penalty notice.

 

[185]

Recently, I noticed their (or Carlisle's) RPIs floating around at Hadfield. They were stood just inside the double 'exit' doors of Hadfield's (tiny, 15-foot long) booking office. As people were stepping from the platform to the office they were shouting to 'have your ticket ready please'. It would be questionable if lets say Jon Doe steps into the booking office through the double platform doors, before he has the chance to even get to the booking office window, they have already (technically) intercepted & spoken with the passenger.

A lot of the ones they catch, they are bang to rights, but I am a little sceptical with this one.

 

[scrapy]

Recently, I noticed their (or Carlisle's) RPIs floating around at Hadfield. They were stood just inside the double 'exit' doors of Hadfield's (tiny, 15-foot long) booking office. As people were stepping from the platform to the office they were shouting to 'have your ticket ready please'. It would be questionable if lets say Jon Doe steps into the booking office through the double platform doors, before he has the chance to even get to the booking office window, they have already (technically) intercepted & spoken with the passenger.

A lot of the ones they catch, they are bang to rights, but I am a little sceptical with this one.

On an almost daily basis they have 1 or 2 Carlisle security at the station usually in a morning. These are not trained RPIs but simply check tickets and direct people to use the booking office before boarding or when a leaving a train to buy a ticket if they don' have one.
When Carlisle security RPIs do 'stings' like the OP encountered they should be beyond the booking office and there are usually at least 3 or 4 possibly but certainally not always with BTP or Carlisles Travelsafe officers. If they are doing these operations without a person having any opportunity to buy then it wouldn't stand up in court.

 

[185143]

I can see, and am inclined to agree with (on paper) an argument that if you've passed the ticket office then they have you bang to rights.

But surely if a passenger approaches an RPI and says 'Where can I get a ticket/Can I get a ticket please?' And they've not had an opportunity until arriving at that station, they shouldn't do anything other than sell a ticket surely? Like 185, I too am sceptical with this one...

 

[323235]

The way in which Carlisle Security operate their revenue protection is inconsistent on many levels.

At Piccadilly they sell tickets if you have come from an unstaffed station and issue failure to pay to those arriving / claiming to arrive from staffed stations. Sometimes you might be served by Virgin staff who are usually more lenient about what they sell - they usually take a passengers word for TVM's being out of service.

At Macclesfield Carlisle Security sell tickets to all passengers (certainly as of the end of Jan) and try to prevent access to the Virgin booking office.

At unstaffed stations Carlisle issue failure to pay to all passengers regardless of if there was no opportunity at the starting station.

At some stations in West Yorkshire you would be handed a penalty fare for not having a ticket, especially if you don't have a promise to pay. Presumibly some passengers in the Penalty Fare zone might still be treated to a FTP if the TVM is broken and Carlisle have no ticket machine ?

Now they are using questionable methods of what could be described as entrapment (depending on their true positioning) at small stations with a ticket office. The idea being that there is an invisible line at the door of a ticket office and you must not pass it even if you might be under the false assumption the man outside the door is a ticket man as he is shouting "tickets and passes please".

My view is Northern's revenue protection policy needs an urgent overhaul to weed out the unacceptable inconsistency.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As a child I can remember traveling in from Caersws to Newtown with my mother. If the Booking Office in the village was closed and the conductor didn't come round or didn't have time in the sub 10 minute journey she always made a point of going to the booking office in Newtown and getting the tickets after alighting. The situation that happened to the OP would never have arisen.

As I got off at Hadfield I could see the inspectors waiting just outside the doors of Hadfield station checking peoples tickets. I walked through the ticket office at Hadfield and approached the inspectors with my wallet open in order to purchase a ticket

Your only possible defense is that because you saw the RPI's you believed that you could purchase the ticket from them and they appeared to be an available opportunity as they were in your line of site as you came through the Booking Office. BUT as others have posted if they were wearing bodycams and the footage is not consistent with your story it could backfire. So think hard.

 

[furlong]

Ask yourself if, at any point on your journey, it could be proved that you intended not to pay your fare. (It doesn't matter if at other times, before or after, you did intend to pay - a prosecution could focus in on one or more instances when you acted as someone who didn't and try to obtain a conviction on that basis.) Was there a point in time - as you passed the open ticket office perhaps - where this negative could be proved because anyone else in your position who did intend to pay would have stopped and purchased their ticket? Or were the officers visible when you were at that position by the ticket office such that it seemed clear to you that you could approach them to make your purchase? Was there any queue and if so, how long was it?

 

[K12r]

Don't pay if your account is true.
They will drop this in no time once Northern are aware that you'll be calling their guard to give evidence in support of your case.

 

[shredder1]

Did he know what an RPI was, or did he just think they were ticketing inspectors, which he states in his post, staff who he could purchase a ticket from?

 

[Bletchleyite]

My view is Northern's revenue protection policy needs an urgent overhaul to weed out the unacceptable inconsistency.

Yep, this.

A given route needs to be (and be clearly promoted as) either:-

a. A Paytrain route on which paying on board is always acceptable regardless of ticket office opening and with reasonable expectation that the guard will be able to come through and sell tickets (or issue free journey vouchers to the interchange point if their machine is broken).

b. A Penalty Fares area, with ticketing facilities available at all stations (ticket office and/or at least two TVMs accepting cash and card), no on board sales, strictly buy before boarding, and strict application of Penalty Fares if caught without a ticket.

In (b) I actually really like the Metrolink approach of "if all the TVMs are broken you must phone for a reference number but will get a genuinely free journey". It means there is and can be no ambiguity, people who just can't work the TVM can get help, you get a free journey (which is good customer service when things aren't working right) and any multiple TVM fault is reported within minutes.

The hybrid situation really does not work.

 

[najaB]

Did he know what an RPI was, or did he just think they were ticketing inspectors, which he states in his post, staff who he could purchase a ticket from?

That's unclear, however it still stands that "I saw them and offered to pay them" can be interpreted as "I offered to pay because I saw them."

 

[K12r]

I asked the guard for a ticket, but he didn't come back before my stop where I saw the inspectors selling tickets, as they do at Piccadilly. I approached the inspectors in order to buy a ticket and he gave me a fine ! ( penalty / whatever ).
Not much room for spinning that against the OP.

 

[shredder1]

That's unclear, however it still stands that "I saw them and offered to pay them" can be interpreted as "I offered to pay because I saw them."

Well but surely that wouldnt make sense would it, I mean if he saw them, and realised who they were, then surely he`wouldnt have approached them and just bought a ticket from the machine?

 

[ainsworth74]

The key question for me is the location of this revenue block on the station. If, when you enter the station building from the platform (i.e. you are in the ticket office), you could see the revenue block and then immediately approach them to try and buy a ticket? To me it would be hard to show that there was intent to evade the fare. I do not think it unreasonable for a passenger to approach railway staff to buy a ticket when they can see them even if there is a ticket office.

On the other hand if you could not see the revenue staff until after you have exited the station building (i.e. you have gone past the ticket office and had no way of knowing they would be outside) then I would say intent would be very easy to show seeing as there is plenty of case law on the point around walking past an open ticket office.

My advice would be to pay and then complain via customer services. You could always take your chances in court but I would a) consider that risky and b) definitely employ the services of a criminal defence solicitor (which adds cost). So I would pay it and then complain to customer services assuming that my first paragraph has the sequence of events correct. If it does not and events are more along the lines of my second paragraph then I would pay it to avoid what would most likely be a successful prosecution!

 

[najaB]

Well but surely that wouldnt make sense would it, I mean if he saw them, and realised who they were, then surely he`wouldnt have approached them and just bought a ticket from the machine?

If the machine can't sell tickets from other stations then that wouldn't really help as there's every chance they'll ask to see the ticket you just bought.

 

[sheff1]

I do not think it unreasonable for a passenger to approach railway staff to buy a ticket when they can see them even if there is a ticket office.

... and this is exactly what a passenger is supposed to do at the other end of the same line at Manchester Piccadilly. From the OP's post they were aware of the situation at Piccadilly and quite reasonably expected the same arrangement to apply when travelling in the opposite direction.

 

[TBirdFrank]

This situation and the accompanying threats are normal practice on this line, and a stain on the proper way to do railway business.

I could have fallen foul at Rochdale yesterday. I rocked up to the subway barriers - wide open, no staff and needed a pee. So I shot into the platform loo and sorted that little problem, came downstairs and the barriers were closed and staffed. My all stations free pass sorted the problem - but for a "normal"???

My daughter has had this sort of uncalled for behaviour and allegation thrown at her by these dreadful people masquerading as railway staff - but they soon melt into the cracks in the paving when confronted by a real railwayman.

Take them on - teach them a lesson and let them give you some compensation and not the other way round

 

[bb21]

Take them on - teach them a lesson and let them give you some compensation and not the other way round

Please elaborate how.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This situation and the accompanying threats are normal practice on this line, and a stain on the proper way to do railway business.

I could have fallen foul at Rochdale yesterday. I rocked up to the subway barriers - wide open, no staff and needed a pee. So I shot into the platform loo and sorted that little problem, came downstairs and the barriers were closed and staffed. My all stations free pass sorted the problem - but for a "normal"???

“Just been to the ticket office”?

They deserve that to be used as an excuse given the ill thought through setup there.

 

[northwichcat]

The OP says that there was a ticket machine at the destination station. He also says that he walked through the ticket office, so presumably the building was open at the time.

The ticket office window at Glossop is easy to miss unless you know where it is: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stati...otDetails.aspx?stdCode=SME_GLO&fullsize=88193 I think the photo actually shows the window closed but I'm not 100% sure of that.