Split ticket - Manchester Airport to Chester

[wyddfa]

Advice please for a lurker - not a poster

Earlier this afternoon I travelled from Manchester Airport to Chester. At the airport station I asked for two singles using our two together railcard. I asked for “the cheapest ticket” - and specifically mentioned “I want a split ticket”. The clerk said it would cost £26.80 and that no split ticket arrangements would be cheaper.

With the 14.11 northern service to Crewe to depart in three minutes I was in no position to argue and reluctantly paid for two non split singles.

On the train I found out that splitting tickets at Wilmslow would appear to cost cost 17.80 plus 4.20. I appear to have been overcharged.

Thanks everybody in advance

Two questions arise:


1 Am I right on the fare calculations?

2 How do I complain about being mis sold my tickets?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ticket office staff are required to sell the best value single or return ticket for your journey. They are not required to do splits unless you specifically request it and tell them what split you want them to issue. They are certainly not required to do research on splits on the behalf of a passenger.

So I'm afraid you do not have grounds for complaint. Though him saying none were cheaper is a bit silly of him, he should simply have said he did not know of any that were cheaper (sure that's not what he did say?), or just parroted the rules which are that he doesn't have to consider them at all anyway.

 

[bb21]

Agreed. If you want to use split tickets to save money over through fares, you need to do the research yourself. Ticket office staff have neither the time nor obligation to do such research on the passenger's behalf.

You have no valid grounds for complaint.

 

[northwichcat]

I asked for “the cheapest ticket” - and specifically mentioned “I want a split ticket”. The clerk said it would cost £26.80 and that no split ticket arrangements would be cheaper.

With the 14.11 northern service to Crewe to depart in three minutes I was in no position to argue and reluctantly paid for two non split singles.

On the train I found out that splitting tickets at Wilmslow would appear to cost cost 17.80 plus 4.20. I appear to have been overcharged.

The Wilmslow to Chester fare you mentioned is a Virgin only fare, the any operator ticket would be £23.30. If you'd purchased those combination of tickets you'd have had to alight the Northern service at Wilmslow, wait 55 minutes for a Virgin service to Crewe and then arrive in Chester an hour later than you did. The clerk actually sold you the cheapest option for catching the next train to Crewe and then the next train to Chester, going via Manchester Piccadilly would have costed more.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Staff contrary to what some customers belief do not have a magic button they can press called "cheapest fare". Neither are Split Tickets the cheapest option they are not a magic panacea they can work in the opposite direction.

The vast majority of fares I sell do not have a cheaper split ticket option. Knowing about them is very much an experience thing and boils down to what ttime trains being taken/ coming back on, which operator etc, this can be time consuming in finding out what the customer wants and often ultimately futile.

 

[6Gman]

With the 14.11 northern service to Crewe to depart in three minutes I was in no position to argue and reluctantly paid for two non split singles.

How would you have felt if the booking office clerk searching for split tickets had meant you missed the train?

My personal experience is that staff will co-operate in checking options but it takes time. Which you didn't have.

 

[yorkie]

On the train I found out that splitting tickets at Wilmslow would appear to cost cost 17.80 plus 4.20. I appear to have been overcharged.

If you want a combination of tickets for your journey, you will need to either do your own research or use an accredited ticket "splitting" website. The rail industry considers it fair game to charge you a higher price for the convenience of a single ticket for this journey and ticket clerks are instructed not to offer cheaper combinations.

Trainsplit finds an even cheaper combination if you are prepared to travel via Newton-le-Willows.

2 How do I complain about being mis sold my tickets?

There are no grounds for complaint.

Customers are entitled to use a third party split ticket finding website if they wish but the train companies have no intention of offering this facility, as it would reduce their revenue.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I did a brief stint in the booking office of a large station. There was a well used split to a popular destination at peak time (wasn't cheaper at off peak or super off peak times) Many passengers would ask to split but didn't or wouldn't know where. So I wouldn't sell it. Up to the passenger to know where to do it. Those that came in and said "anytime return to X splitting at Y please" would have it sold without question.

 

[northwichcat]

I did a brief stint in the booking office of a large station. There was a well used split to a popular destination at peak time (wasn't cheaper at off peak or super off peak times) Many passengers would ask to split but didn't or wouldn't know where. So I wouldn't sell it. Up to the passenger to know where to do it. Those that came in and said "anytime return to X splitting at Y please" would have it sold without question.

While ticket office clerks aren't required to search for split ticket combinations aren't they now expected to sell the cheapest option (including split tickets) that they know about?

 

[tiptoptaff]

I was required to sell the ticket asked for. Asking for a split ticket without a split location is still upon me to find out or know where to split. If they've done the research they should know where to ask to split it.

 

[northwichcat]

I was required to sell the ticket asked for. Asking for a split ticket without a split location is still upon me to find out or know where to split. If they've done the research they should know where to ask to split it.

I thought there was a recent requirement for ticket office staff to have to offer a cheaper suitable alternative to the requested ticket if one exists and they are aware it without having to search possible options.

 

[221129]

I thought there was a recent requirement for ticket office staff to have to offer a cheaper suitable alternative to the requested ticket if one exists and they are aware it without having to search possible options.

How do you know that the member of staff knows about it? How do you prove that? And what happens when some do and some don't. I'm pretty sure that is not a real requirement.

 

[yorkie]

While ticket office clerks aren't required to search for split ticket combinations aren't they now expected to sell the cheapest option (including split tickets) that they know about?

No; if the journey can be made on one ticket, then unless you ask for a combination of tickets, they are only meant to sell the cheapest through ticket.

I am not sure if they are obliged to sell a Rover/Ranger/Travelcard where that is cheaper, but I would expect such a product to be sold if it was known by the seller and/or obvious.

 

[moliones]

No; if the journey can be made on one ticket, then unless you ask for a combination of tickets, they are only meant to sell the cheapest through ticket.

I am not sure if they are obliged to sell a Rover/Ranger/Travelcard where that is cheaper, but I would expect such a product to be sold if it was known by the seller and/or obvious.

I have been sold a Northern Duo before, without asking for it. (And in that case, the additional restrictions on the ticket were not explained to me either)

 

[yorkie]

If two passengers are travelling (ignoring any potential for Railcard discounts to be cheaper) then a Duo should be offered as the cheapest ticket, however the restrictions of any ticket should be explained unless the passenger specifically asks for it by name, in which case it can reasonably be assumed the passenger is aware of the restrictions.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I thought there was a recent requirement for ticket office staff to have to offer a cheaper suitable alternative to the requested ticket if one exists and they are aware it without having to search possible options.

How do they know that though- is there an official list? As i said before there is no such thing as a magic button on train ticket retail systems that says "chepest possible fare/combination of tickets". Split Tickets are down to personal knowledge there are no lists of them. TrainSplit.Com doesn't offer splits I know about.

 

[northwichcat]

How do they know that though

Say hypothetically one morning a passenger comes to you and asks for a return to Shrewsbury splitting at Welshpool and the total comes to less than a return to Shrewsbury that you've just sold to another passenger then you'd know for next time. Although obviously if they are buying tickets to Brough in Yorkshire then it might be so long before anyone else travels there that you can't be expected to remember.

 

[najaB]

The rail industry considers it fair game to charge you a higher price for the convenience of a single ticket for this journey and ticket clerks are instructed not to offer cheaper combinations.

They charge the set rate for the journey the customer asked for. End of.

 

[bb21]

Say hypothetically one morning a passenger comes to you and asks for a return to Shrewsbury splitting at Welshpool and the total comes to less than a return to Shrewsbury that you've just sold to another passenger then you'd know for next time. Although obviously if they are buying tickets to Brough in Yorkshire then it might be so long before anyone else travels there that you can't be expected to remember.

Even in your first example it is a totally unenforceable requirement to sell the combination next time, so it is a pointless requirement.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Say hypothetically one morning a passenger comes to you and asks for a return to Shrewsbury splitting at Welshpool and the total comes to less than a return to Shrewsbury that you've just sold to another passenger then you'd know for next time. Although obviously if they are buying tickets to Brough in Yorkshire then it might be so long before anyone else travels there that you can't be expected to remember.

My Commission would go up if people split their tickets to Shrewsbury at Welshpool but in reality I would tell them its more expensive.

Many people here have Cambrian Railcards and ask for "a return to Telford using my Cambrian" which is not allowed but what they mean is a return to Shrewsbury on their Cambrian card and then a separate ticket to Telford. On a Saturday this makes it £11.55 v £22.20 for the official CDR through ticket. The problem then becomes the person behind them is going to Birmingham New St and asks for the same and you have to tell them it works the other way

 

[northwichcat]

My Commission would go up if people split their tickets to Shrewsbury at Welshpool but in reality I would tell them its more expensive.

That's why I said hypothetically because if it was cheaper to do that it probably wouldn't be long before you found out about it even if you didn't already know.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That's why I said hypothetically because if it was cheaper to do that it probably wouldn't be long before you found out about it even if you didn't already know.

There's splits and there's splits. A lot of people imagine it's the industry hiding the cheapest fare and it's all a question of getting staff and websites to sell the hidden prices. However they can involve different routes, different operators and awareness of multiple operations different policy's on ticket validity. All this is very time consuming to check out and explain to 90% of customers. I see people who go Into melt down about changing at Shrewsbury to go on a day trip to Birmingham. Imagine then having to explain validity and restrictions on a handful of different tickets....

 

[northwichcat]

There's splits and there's splits. A lot of people imagine it's the industry hiding the cheapest fare and it's all a question of getting staff and websites to sell the hidden prices. However they can involve different routes, different operators and awareness of multiple operations different policy's on ticket validity. All this is very time consuming to check out and explain to 90% of customers. I see people who go Into melt down about changing at Shrewsbury to go on a day trip to Birmingham. Imagine then having to explain validity and restrictions on a handful of different tickets....

Indeed. As I mentioned in an earlier post the OP's idea of splitting at Wilmslow would have meant he couldn't travel to Crewe on Northern and would have added 1 hour to the journey time. However, there are instances where to travel from A to C it's cheaper to split at B and all trains from A to C call at B and the ticket conditions for A to B and B to C are the same as the ones for A to C.

 

[bb21]

As I mentioned earlier, if it is unenforceable, ie. compliance is not measurable in some way, then it is not a feasible requirement.

It cannot simply be that amongst a general set of conditions, A to B is an exception, when you may have hundreds of such exceptions in the manner you described, and when all retail points are expected to sell all nationwide products impartially.

Nice idea, but non-starter from a regulatory point I'm afraid.

You'd be better off improving the fares system locally to remove such "anomalies".

 

[sheff1]

A lot of people imagine it's the industry hiding the cheapest fare

And they wouldn't be far wrong in cases such as this:

I did a brief stint in the booking office of a large station. There was a well used split to a popular destination at peak time (wasn't cheaper at off peak or super off peak times) Many passengers would ask to split but didn't or wouldn't know where. So I wouldn't sell it. Up to the passenger to know where to do it. Those that came in and said "anytime return to X splitting at Y please" would have it sold without question.

where the booking office knows full well what the cheapest split at peak times but will not sell it, even when a passenger asks for a split but is not 100% where the well used split point is.

I know the 'rules' are being followed, but the passenger who is aware of the existence of the split but is not sure of the exact details will likely think the cheapest option is being hidden.

 

[bb21]

The customer can make all sorts of inferences and assumptions. It does not necessarily mean what they want or think is either reasonable or realistic.

Take the OP's example, splitting at Wilmslow is cheaper, and the clerk sells it. What if splitting at Holmes Chapel is actually the cheapest but the clerk did not know about it? Should he have been required to sell it? If not then how do you pen down the requirement to sell a cheaper split fare which is both clearly defined and enforceable, and most importantly consistent? If yes then how does one ensure it happens, as human knowledge cannot be depended on reliably?

So take the second option and that the clerk at Manchester Airport be required to sell the split without the passenger knowing what he wants, should the clerk at Manchester Oxford Road be required to do so? Should the clerk at Preston be required to know about the split? If the answer is no then why are people purchasing at Preston who does not know what he wants but simply "a split" be discriminated against? If yes then how do you ensure such knowledge is made available to all fare retailing staff?

I hear you say "a computer programme". Even the experts at trainsplit cannot claim to be able to find the cheapest split, how do you expect anyone else to manage it, given cries of incompetency often levied against the industry on this forum, and the whole myriad of possible requirements even for the same journeys (so a pre-defined static database is out). Why just splits? What about buying long and stopping short? How much processing time and resource is this going to consume, while people are stuck in the queues with the majority only wanting to buy a simple point-to-point ticket?

While it may be a desirable thing to have, it isn't quite so straight-forward to require splits to be sold at ticket offices without staff being told exactly what the customer wants when you look deeper into it. As I mentioned before, it would be much easier to concentrate effort on some localised examples of such "anomalies" and have them fixed in a suitable way, than contemplate the voluntary sale of split tickets in any meaningful regulatory framework, but the former, while benefitting those not "in the know", would result in some people losing out, which is then vehemently opposed by some on this forum. So you can't please everyone.

 

[Gareth Marston]

How much processing time and resource is this going to consume, while people are stuck in the queues with the majority only wanting to buy a simple point-to-point ticket?

We had a customer who asked for split tickets from here to Birmingham New St on a Saturday morning we told her it actually costs more and told her the fares (SDR = £20.70 , SDR NWT to SHR = £8.70, CDR SHR to BHM = £15.00) she still acted as though we were out to con here and was flanging about trying to argue. Meantime the queue was out the door. We sold her the split ticket in the end as she kept insisting. There were people in the queue behind her rolling their eyes and banging there hands on their head. "Wish I had customers who insisted on paying more Gareth" was one comment!

After all she found out on the internet you can save money by splitting tickets.

 

[najaB]

We sold her the split ticket in the end as she kept insisting.

If they won't take your advice then sell the customer the ticket they ask for.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If they won't take your advice then sell the customer the ticket they ask for.

Partial knowledge is perhaps more dangerous than no knowledge sometimes!

 

[najaB]

Where the booking office knows full well what the cheapest split at peak times but will not sell it, even when a passenger asks for a split but is not 100% where the well used split point is.

But 'well-used' doesn't necessarily translate to 'appropriate to this customer's needs'.