East Coast: if it served more places

[backontrack]

Here's a thought.

The West Coast franchise works because you have branches to many towns and cities off the main route (e.g. Birmingham, Chester, Liverpool, Manchester). What if more destinations were served on the East Coast - like Nottingham, Sheffield, Scarborough and Middlesbrough?

1tph London-York-Darlington-Newcastle-Berwick-Edinburgh-(the Highlands)
1tph London-Peterborough-(Doncaster 1tp2h)-York-(Northallerton 1tp2h)-Darlington-Durham-Newcastle-Alnmouth-Edinburgh-(Glasgow)
1tp2h London-Wakefield Westgate-Leeds-Dewsbury-Huddersfield
1tp4h London-Wakefield Westgate-Leeds-Shipley-Keighley-Skipton
1tp4h London-Wakefield Westgate-Leeds-Shipley-Bradford Forster Square
1tph London-Grantham-Doncaster-Wakefield Westgate-Leeds
1tp2h London-Newark-Doncaster-York-Knaresborough-Harrogate
1tp2h London-Newark-Doncaster-York-Northallerton-Thornaby-Middlesbrough
1tp2h London-Stevenage-Newark-Lincoln Central-(Grimsby)
1tp2h London-Grantham-Retford-Doncaster-York-Malton-Seamer-Scarborough
1tp2h London-Stevenage-Peterborough-Grantham-Bingham-Nottingham
1tp2h London-Peterborough-Newark-Retford-Sheffield
1tpd London-York-Darlington-Durham-Newcastle-Sunderland
1tpd London-Doncaster-Selby-Brough-Hull
Occasional calls at Morpeth and Worksop

This works out as:
Stevenage: 1tph
Peterborough: 2tph
Grantham: 3tp2h
Newark: 3tp2h
Retford: 1tph
Doncaster: 3tph
Wakefield Westgate & Leeds: 2tph
York: 3tph
Northallerton, Durham, Alnmouth and Berwick: 1tph
Darlington, Newcastle & Edinburgh: 2tph

Utterly daft? Probably, yes. But fun to think about? Maybe.

 

[Mag_seven]

Occasional calls at Morpeth and Worksop

And Dunbar!

 

[Bevan Price]

Why confine the southern end to just London ? Why not a few services from Norwich, Ipswich, Cambridge to Leeds, Newcastle or Edinburgh?

 

[richard1976]

Occasional calls at Morpeth and Worksop
.

Dont think East Coast have ever called at Worksop

 

[jfisher21]

In general, the places on the East Coast Line are smaller than those on the West Coast Line. So I guess that is why it is harder to make a profit!

 

[takno]

In general, the places on the East Coast Line are smaller than those on the West Coast Line. So I guess that is why it is harder to make a profit!

The East Coast has never struggled to make an operating profit - it does significantly better than the West Coast IIRC. It's just that the bids are always wildly over-optimistic so the government's cut of the profits ends up being more than 100%...

The main problem with the "more destinations" suggestion is that it seems to not have the 4hr Edinburgh train in it. There's a lot of money in getting people from London to Edinburgh if you can do it more or less as quickly centre-to-centre as a plane. Stopping off in places like Darlington really eats into that.

 

[DarloRich]

The question i ask is why?

 

[Mugby]

The original Great Northern Railway operated trains from Kings Cross to Nottingham and the mileage is not significantly different to that of the Midland route. I would imagine that faster timings could be achieved via Grantham but thence to Nottingham is still a very antiquated line with low speeds and level crossings etc.

Also, of course, in BR days, a ticket from Nottingham to London was valid by either route.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I agree with you @backontrack . Perhaps if they extended the half hourly Leeds service to Bradford Forster Square, Harrogate, Huddersfield and Skipton? (Each one served every two hours).

Or by extending those that terminate at Newcastle to Sunderland perhaps?

 

[cuccir]

. (Birmingham, Chester, Liverpool, Manchester). What if more destinations were served on the East Coast - like Nottingham, Sheffield, Scarborough and Middlesbrough?

The West Coast destinations you give include the main settlements in the 2nd, 3rd and 6th biggest population urban areas in UK. Compared to the 9th, 10th - both already with direct services to London - and two other towns for the East Coast.

As well as this, the proposal would significantly complicate timetabling, route knowledge and the positioning of units.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Also, of course, in BR days, a ticket from Nottingham to London was valid by either route.

I'm pretty sure it still is

 

[edwin_m]

The original Great Northern Railway operated trains from Kings Cross to Nottingham and the mileage is not significantly different to that of the Midland route. I would imagine that faster timings could be achieved via Grantham but thence to Nottingham is still a very antiquated line with low speeds and level crossings etc.

Also, of course, in BR days, a ticket from Nottingham to London was valid by either route.

I'm pretty sure it still is

Indeed it is. There are also walk-on tickets valid only via Grantham that are cheaper than "any permitted".

It can be 10min or so slower than via Leicester but that includes a connection of more than 10min at Grantham, and Nottingham-Grantham is slower than it used to be so a faster London-Nottingham timing ought to be possible. However equivalent investment in the MML would improve timings there too so there isn't an obvious winner. I would question the benefit of London-Grantham-Nottingham given that fast trains will still have to run on the MML to serve London-Leicester and Leicester-Nottingham and they might as well be the same train. By contrast a London-Grantham-Nottingham doesn't serve any significant new intermediate flows (Nottingham-Peterborough already has an hourly service). Some, but not all, of the Nottingham-London market will divert to HS2 in 2033 so there's no real need for extra capacity on the existing network.

 

[High Dyke]

Dont think East Coast have ever called at Worksop

Can you blame them?

The original Great Northern Railway operated trains from Kings Cross to Nottingham and the mileage is not significantly different to that of the Midland route. I would imagine that faster timings could be achieved via Grantham but thence to Nottingham is still a very antiquated line with low speeds and level crossings etc.

Also, of course, in BR days, a ticket from Nottingham to London was valid by either route.

There are plans in place to relay more of the route from Grantham with Continuous Welded Rail (CWR), thus giving a better ride quality. Yes there are still many level crossing on the route from Grantham, but most have been converted to the OD type crossings, with just two AHB and one MCB crossing remaining. It could be argued that the ECML has many level crossings on the route from London to Edinburgh. It's not the quantity but their method of control that affects the route.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The question i ask is why?

The question I would ask is why not KGX-Darlo-Bishop?

 

[gordonthemoron]

or for that matter KGX-Grantham-Sleaford-Boston-Skegness

 

[Mitch in Notts]

or for that matter KGX-Grantham-Sleaford-Boston-Skegness

or for that matter KGX-Spalding-Sleaford-Boston-Skegness

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The problem for EC destinations is capacity at the southern end.
EC could easily service Nottingham and Sheffield faster than the Midland, and stop at other places like Worksop.
But:
a) it would break the back of the overall Midland service
b) it denies paths on the ECML to other destinations (Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh particularly)

BR wrestled with this dilemma and chose to concentrate Notts/Sheffield services at St Pancras.
DfT and the current TOCs are just following the same logic.
There are only 6tph fast paths out of King's Cross, rising to 7tph by 2020 when current capacity enhancements are complete.
Choices have to be made.

Bi-modes actually improve the business case for off-wire destinations.
But I doubt DfT will go for those two destinations, in particular.
Places like Lincoln, Grimsby, Scarborough and Middlesbrough also suffer from the same capacity issue, except maybe for the odd through service.
If Welwyn Viaduct was 4-tracked things would be different.
VTWC has 9tph fast paths (11tph peak).

 

[DarloRich]

The question I would ask is why not KGX-Darlo-Bishop?

I would prefer a Fenny Stratford > Wakefield/Leeds>Darlo service on demand

 

[Senex]

The original Great Northern Railway operated trains from Kings Cross to Nottingham ....

The original Great Northern Railway also operated trains from Kings Cross to Manchester, but even by 1952 that option and the GC main line option had vanished from the BR Book of Routes.

 

[Kite159]

I agree with you @backontrack . Perhaps if they extended the half hourly Leeds service to Bradford Forster Square, Harrogate, Huddersfield and Skipton? (Each one served every two hours).

Or by extending those that terminate at Newcastle to Sunderland perhaps?

Why?

It will require more stock (currently the London - Leeds service tend to have an half-hour turnaround at Leeds so not enough time for the little jollies for what will mostly be local passengers), all will require reversals at Leeds [unless you decide to ignore Wakefield and send the services via Hambleton).

Similar to the Newcastle terminators being extended to Sunderland, it will require bi-modes and also pathing might be an issue so the 800 has to reach Pelaw junction before a metro service, then clear out of the way at Sunderland due to platform space, for what will probably be mainly used by local passengers wanting to cut down the journey time vice the metro.

Easiest way for the East Coast is to keep it simple, maybe even getting rid of those "once a day" oddities.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think the problem with the East Coast route is that it doesn't serve anywhere of size, until you get to Doncaster.
Most of the route is through rural Lincolnshire & Nottinghamshire, Grantham & Newark aren't really that big.
Wheras the MML serves places like Leicester, Derby & Nottingham which are of a significant size.

The EC could serve Nottingham, but what's the point? It's not that much slower on the MML, which serves more places where people actually want to go.
There's still a significant London to Leicester & Leicester to Nottingham flow, which the EC can't cater for.

 

[ainsworth74]

The East Coast has never struggled to make an operating profit - it does significantly better than the West Coast IIRC. It's just that the bids are always wildly over-optimistic so the government's cut of the profits ends up being more than 100%...

Yes that is perhaps a point worth hammering home (just as it was yesterday in front of the Public Accounts Committee). The InterCity East Coast farnchise is profitable. I think the figure mentioned by the Michael Griffiths of Stagecoach was £200m profit for last year. The problem isn't that the franchise doesn't make money. It's that DfT's premium payments swallow all the profit up (and then some).

 

[westv]

Easiest way for the East Coast is to keep it simple, maybe even getting rid of those "once a day" oddities.

Hmmmph!

 

[dorsetdesiro]

or for that matter KGX-Spalding-Sleaford-Boston-Skegness

This possible service I would have thought to be operated by Great Northern, with better trains than the 700 obviously, instead of VTEC?

I find it funny a TOC named Great Northern only goes as far to Kings Lynn, nowhere Northern! Surely there could be potential for GN to extend to Lincolnshire perhaps to Grimsby too? Otherwise GN should be named along the lines of "West Anglia" as the eastern part is served by Greater Anglia.

Sorry for going slightly off topic

 

[xotGD]

The question I would ask is why not KGX-Darlo-Bishop?

Or KX-Darlo-Bish-Stanhope?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Or KX-Darlo-Bish-Stanhope?

even better

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Bradford is bigger than Newcastle and considerably bigger than York and Doncaster.

 

[Kite159]

Hmmmph!

How many passengers from stations south of Newcastle continue onto the HST to Sunderland late at night?
How many passengers carry on to Bradford Forster Square/Skipton who don't board at Leeds?

 

[ainsworth74]

How many passengers from stations south of Newcastle continue onto the HST to Sunderland late at night?
How many passengers carry on to Bradford Forster Square/Skipton who don't board at Leeds?

But what are you trying to 'fix' by axing those connections?

 

[MontyP]

How many passengers from stations south of Newcastle continue onto the HST to Sunderland late at night?
How many passengers carry on to Bradford Forster Square/Skipton who don't board at Leeds?

I caught the evening VTEC direct service from London to Bradford F Sq a couple of years ago - I counted the passengers who got off at F Sq, 12 in total. No idea how many of those had come all the way from London. Doesn't make much sense to me to run trains that can carry 600 passengers on such marginal extensions except in the early morning / late evening when they are not fully utilised. The East Coast route used to have lots more trains to Bradford, Hull (pre-Hull Trains), Harrogate, Middlesbrough and Cleethorpes which were all gradually scrapped to enable increased frequency on the core routes to Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh.