Snow Service Changes 25/02/18 onwards.

[Mutant Lemming]

It is entirely possible to check just before you travel, but I would think that more people can try to arrange alternative transport (hitching a lift with colleagues, working from home, etc) with 12 hours notice rather than 30 minutes.

Granted that they should admit their failings to provide a service as soon as they know they aren't going to - but they are still failing to provide a service.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

There is snow on my street in North London.

well there ain't here ...is it four feet deep and have the buses stopped running ?


just went out the door to confirm and there isn't even an ounce of snow

 

[6Gman]

Quite possible to check on the day isn't it before going to the station? The train hotel was direct response to asking what happened in DB its obviously not plan a but a contingency. Not sure being stuck somewhere with no train is much better. Not everyone can plan to jsut not travel at 12 hours notice.

But if I'm reading the GA announcement correctly the only routes without service are the rural branches on the coast (and one London area service). So we are talking about small numbers over short distances.

And having looked at the Met Office forecast for East Norfolk and East Suffolk it may be a hunker down for 48hr job for a lot of people!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Errr but not in advance, thats kind of the point being made isn't it? Stock was used as hotels etc but people were not abandoned in the main (as I understand a few reports from people there)

On a smaller scale that has happened in the UK as well. And unlike them we actually have some sleeper stock

 

[jellybaby]

well there ain't here ...is it four feet deep and have the buses stopped running ?


just went out the door to confirm and there isn't even an ounce of snow

My point was your local conditions aren't necessarily relevant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

West Midlands Trains in either of their guises do not appear to be reporting any service reductions at all. Light dusting in MK with more expected overnight.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

My point was your local conditions aren't necessarily relevant.

... for London Overground Richmond to Stratford service they should be pretty relevant - I can't see West Hampstead having no snow and Canonbury having such a deluge that trains stop running
maybe Thameslink south of the river yes but they haven't stopped the last trains (yet)


incidentally you didn't say how much snow you have where you are - there is absolutely NO snow here (it is parky mind)

 

[RichJF]

1987 was before my time, but I have seen a multitude of Southern EMUs being propelled/dragged along the Maidstone East/SEML lines by various diesel locos when there were snowdrifts in the SE. Makes you wonder that if rail companies & Network Rail had joined up thinking they'd make some compatible!
Just my wishful thinking

 

[Mutant Lemming]

1987 was before my time, but I have seen a multitude of Southern EMUs being propelled/dragged along the Maidstone East/SEML lines by various diesel locos when there were snowdrifts in the SE. Makes you wonder that if rail companies & Network Rail had joined up thinking they'd make some compatible!
Just my wishful thinking

or maybe just a snow competent EMU

 

[Wivenswold]

As the OP, could I politely suggest that a brainstorming session on how the UK's railways can run better in adverse whether goes to a seperate thread please?

There's going to be some important detail/news on this one regarding the deteriorating situation across the country. Having to trawl through pages of debate about why this country is going to pot, whilst occasionally enlightening, was not the intention and may bury information that will be of use in the short term.

Ta.

 

[Taunton]

Rule 55 in BR days : "If stopped at a signal in falling snow, walk to signalbox immediately and report position".

Rule 55 today : "Falling snow is just too difficult for trains nowadays. Tell all the passengers to get their car out".

Or not even falling snow. Here in East London (apparently in the more serious snow zone) not a single flake on the ground.

 

[Darandio]

Or not even falling snow. Here in East London (apparently in the more serious snow zone) not a single flake on the ground.

Well there wouldn't be, and nor was there expected to be right now.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

As the OP, could I politely suggest that a brainstorming session on how the UK's railways can run better in adverse whether goes to a seperate thread please?

There's going to be some important detail/news on this one regarding the deteriorating situation across the country. Having to trawl through pages of debate about why this country is going to pot, whilst occasionally enlightening, was not the intention and may bury information that will be of use in the short term.

Ta.

You are correct in directing the thread towards assisting people in where, which way or whether they should travel

- Thameslink North of the river are running fine - there is no snow in this part of North London at present

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Well there wouldn't be, and nor was there expected to be right now.

The issue though is that they are stopping services before any snow is even falling.

 

[Failed Unit]

Great northern are getting a lot of flak considering no snow is forecast until tomorrow afternoon.

But I still remember that storm (high winds) last year where they were caught out then only use 4 coach trains once network rail had fixed all the wire damage.

I can see a case where you have a snow timetable which may be 8 coach trains every 30 minutes call at key stations. Question is when to you implement it? Once the snow starts falling? When it is a certain depth? Who knows?

 

[plymothian]

Ah; this is a highly predictable Catch 22. No snow = "why the f- are the trains stopped? This never happens in Europe", snow = "why didn't the railway do something, they knew it was forecast."

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Its one of those things (if it all goes pear shaped and the service grinds to a halt). The weather is out of anyones control. In certain European countries and North America snow is more common, its worth all the snow ploughs and other precautions. Over here is it really worth it for a couple of days every three years or so. Just take it easy for the day.

 

[Bromley boy]

Damned if do and damned if don't may well be nearer to reality.

If you try and run a full service, you're okay until something goes wrong, however when it does things will fall over very badly very quickly - to the point where things are likely to degenerate into complete chaos. Then there are factors which the railway simply cannot control, for example if a road accident happens near a major train crew depot and the streets surrounding the depot become gridlocked, all of a sudden you've got a string of book-ons stuck running late with no idea when they will be in. Today's railway runs on the limit most of the time, so add in the effects of snow and you're now trying to run something which is probably unworkable.

Yes there are measures which the industry could take to improve resilience, however do we really want to pay for this simply for a couple of days per year which might not even happen? In the London area I don't remember much if any disruptive snowfall for the last two or three years.

Indeed but that doesn’t deter the arm chair experts who like to stick the boot in, and apparently think know more than the people who are paid to make these kinds of decisions.

All the railway can do when meteorologists warn of severe conditions is plan for them. It’s hardly the railway’s fault if bad weather doesn’t materialise exactly when or where expected. What is the alternative - just ignore the warnings and hope for the best?

Far better to err on the side of caution, manage expectations and encourage people to stay away.

 

[matthewmacleod]

I’m just utterly baffled that anybody would think this is an unreasonable response.

Tomorrow, there is likely to be quite bad weather in many places. In those areas, he NHS is on a high level of alert; motorists have been advised not to travel; there may be school closures; power and telecoms may be disrupted; some flights are cancelled. And yes, some train operators are implementing reduced timetables in an attempt to provide a more resilient and reliable service. This is obviously not a case of the railway industry being “PATHETIC”, given the widespread warnings for many services.

I’m sure there’s a civilised chat to be had about preparations for bad weather across the country, and whether or not the UK should generally be investing more into this so that infrastructure can cope with it. But “there will be disruption tomorrow, so we will provide reduced service so that reliability can be maximised” is hardly an unusual response.

 

[Bromley boy]

I’m just utterly baffled that anybody would think this is an unreasonable response.

Indeed and I’d bet my bottom dollar those moaning about the response tonight would be the first to criticise if no preparations had been made and chaos ensued if conditions were worse than expected.

 

[JW16]

On Tuesday the first TfL Rail train to London Liverpool Street is not until 07:21 and then only every 10 minutes rather than every 5.

How many hundreds of people travel from the stations between Shenfield and London before 07:21? There is bound to be dangerous overcrowding. Why start services that late in the peak - what difference will it make starting at 06:21 or 07:21? It just seems mad to not run anything until 07:21 based on an "amber" forecast.

 

[36270k]

or maybe just a snow competent EMU

In the 1970's a 5000 series 4-EPB would often successfully get through snow and ice where a 4-VEP or later would not.

 

[matthewmacleod]

Why start services that late in the peak - what difference will it make starting at 06:21 or 07:21?

My understanding of what TfL Rail were saying is that this is to allow for the de-icing trains to run first thing in the morning prior to the start of service.

 

[MikeWM]

Looks like both GA and GN have rowed back quite a bit from their (IMO rather premature) ‘nothing tonight after 2200’ announcements and, while not running a full service, are both still running a decent number of trains as we speak.

Which is good, but would have been better still without giving such a blunt message that they were shutting up shop entirely, before seeing what the situation actually was going to be on the ground.

 

[tsr]

Looks like both GA and GN have rowed back quite a bit from their (IMO rather premature) ‘nothing tonight after 2200’ announcements and, while not running a full service, are both still running a decent number of trains as we speak.

Which is good, but would have been better still without giving such a blunt message that they were shutting up shop entirely, before seeing what the situation actually was going to be on the ground.

Network Rail wanted to shut a considerable part of the network down in East Anglia by midnight tonight. TOCs negotiated (narrowly, and quite literally late in the day) a plan to actually run slightly more trains than that, as a precise 00:00 blanket time didn't make a lot of sense, for a few reasons. There's still been a lot of work put into trying to deliver an orderly and slightly earlier shut down, and into contingency measures if it all went wrong. As it stands, the TOCs' negotiation seems to have been the sensible option, but it's not to say that was a foregone conclusion, even as recently as late afternoon.

 

[al78]

It may not be apparent to some on here, but the TV forecasts which are deterministic, only give the forecast for the most likely scenario. Since weather forecasts are not perfect, and therefore have an error distribution associated with them, if the forecast says expect 5-10cm of snow overnight, there is a non-zero probability that the snow could be 15cm, or 20cm. I don't know the ins and outs of operating a railway but I suspect the railway can cope with some snow but there is a point where if enough snow falls, things start to go tits up. For those responsible for making the decisions, they have to make a decision based on the probability that the snowfall will be high enough that it is better to shut services down rather than try to battle through and deal with all the chaos (they will know from past experience how much snow the network can take before it falls over). If that probability is greater than some threshold they will make the decision in advance not to run services and inform people who can then (if possible) make alternative plans.

Am I in any way close as to how decisions are being made right now?

 

[TUC]

Whatever you make of the principle of snow timetables, one is still left with the impression that operators in the south have treated even the prospect of snow as a much bigger deal than it would be in the north, putting the timetables into effect before much snow has even fallen. It might be a north/south cliche but in this case it looks to be true and one has to ask why?

 

[D5645]

UK mainline railways are now run like budget airlines.

There are just enough resources to run the service but no spare resources or resilience if anything goes wrong.

So in the light of that it makes sense to thin out the timetable when heavy snow is forecast to try and keep things going.

 

[DarloRich]

1987 was before my time, but I have seen a multitude of Southern EMUs being propelled/dragged along the Maidstone East/SEML lines by various diesel locos when there were snowdrifts in the SE. Makes you wonder that if rail companies & Network Rail had joined up thinking they'd make some compatible!
Just my wishful thinking

Which locomotives will you use? There aren't rakes of 33's & 73's sat at Eastliegh waiting for the call.

 

[tsr]

To give people a practical example of what's going on tonight...

At the moment there is a stranded Class 313 unit at Newhaven Town. Fortunately only a few passengers have ventured out and about, and fortunately there is a conductor onboard who is looking after them. There are suggestions the loss of power could be weather-related, and assisting staff are having great difficulty getting to the train by road.

If even a few vulnerable people were prevented from travelling on that train due to weather warnings, I think that's a bonus!