• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Is Heathrow Express a good use of resources?

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,055
A Western or Southern rail link to Heathrow is something the airport ought to welcome as it further benefits the surface access mode share, and one or both will almost certainly happen at some stage. But for capacity reasons this will require the HEx paths to continue beyond the airport on something that is more akin to a typical suburban service, and if so the ultra-low-density layout of the HEx would be something of an anomaly when operating a more "normal" rail route with a mix of airport and other passengers. There is also the technical issue that the HEx trains probably aren't convertible to DC supply, which would probably be essential to operate a southern link, so if this is the chosen option the units themselves will be unsuitable.

For these reasons and because if it remains the same HEx will lose some mode share to Crossrail, I would expect to see HEx evolve from today's rather ostentatious offerning into a less differentiated service rather similar to Gatwick Express. But I think while Gatwick Express should remove its premium fare to enourage airport passengers off the Brighton fasts, there is a case for HEx to retain a more modest premium between Heathrow and Paddington to reflect the fact it will genuinely still be the fastest option for many airport passengers. The use of the same trains for other journeys such as Woking to Old Oak for HS2 interchange will offset the likely reduction in Heathrow-Paddington passengers.

Depending on the calling pattern (especially during the peaks) there could be capacity problems on the existing units between Guildford and Woking (so I'd expect that there could be restrictions on that). However on the services to/from Basingstoke (which would, other than those going to Heathrow, be used for local services) would be fine as the numbers of people traveling between the stations between Basingstoke and Woking (regardless of they stop at all the stations or only limited stops) would be fairly limited compared to the capacity of the trains, but a very welcome increase in capacity.

Hook station, with about 800,000 current passengers is likely to see significant growth over the next decade with circa 800 houses with planning permission and over 100 of them currently being built. On top of that there's several flats which are being marketed having been converted from an office building and other developments working through the planning process (including 700 houses which have just been rejected but are likely to be back again, either through a new planning application or planning appeal.

Winchfield could see a new town (upto 2,500 houses) either in close proximity to the station or a short distance (say 20 minute walk).

Fleet is also seeing additional development and Farnborough, although there's no significant developments due, is a major town with a significant number of employers which draws a significant number of people from the surrounding areas.

As such all of those places would likely see significant growth if train frequencies were to increase. As I've suggested elsewhere (as 4tph at Winchfield and Hook could be overkill) one of the current London services could switch to run to Farnham or skip these stations or the Heathrow services could be 1tph to serve Hook whilst the other 1tph to serve Winchfield giving each station 3tph. Any of the options would give 3tph at those minor station (although Hook could have >1 million passengers so isn't that minor in the greater scheme of things) and 6tph for Farnborough (with a mixture of calling patterns, such as 5tph to Woking 3tph to Hook/Winchfield, 2tph to Heathrow, 4tph to Waterloo, which bearing in mind it currently has circa 3 million passengers a year probably isn't too much overkill especially if the extra few services increase passenger numbers).

The problem is that the image of an express service wouldn't work well if it were calling at most stations, however if it didn't call at those stations (so running fast from Basingstoke to Woking it would skip past 4 stations which currently add 6 million passengers to the rail network and where there's plenty of extra passengers who could be added to the network if there were more frieght trains (especially to Heathrow) in either the form of leisure or, potentially more importantly, business travelers who currently (from my experience) mostly use taxies to get to Heathrow.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,981
^^^ Could you have a look at your posting again please? Your last para is unreadable.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,764
Location
Nottingham
Do passengers from new developments alongside the SWML actually want to go to Heathrow? Agreed some of them will from time to time and a few will often, but I would have thought the primary need was for extra capacity to Waterloo. Taking the Heathrow service to Paddington probably wouldn't be time-competitive, especially as most London jobs are more easily accessed via Waterloo.
 

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,581
Do passengers from new developments alongside the SWML actually want to go to Heathrow? Agreed some of them will from time to time and a few will often, but I would have thought the primary need was for extra capacity to Waterloo. Taking the Heathrow service to Paddington probably wouldn't be time-competitive, especially as most London jobs are more easily accessed via Waterloo.
Feltham,Hounslow, Isleworth, Staines have significant amounts of its population employed at the airport.A staines to Heathrow journey is quite difficult with an hourly bus service or a 3x an hour TfL bus service to Hatton Cross.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,055
Do passengers from new developments alongside the SWML actually want to go to Heathrow? Agreed some of them will from time to time and a few will often, but I would have thought the primary need was for extra capacity to Waterloo. Taking the Heathrow service to Paddington probably wouldn't be time-competitive, especially as most London jobs are more easily accessed via Waterloo.

Most people in Hart (Fleet, Winchfield and Hook) don't actually work in London. It's only about 10-15%. As such local travel makes up the majority of travel to work. At the moment trains at they arrive (heading towards London in the morning peak) at Farnborough are only slightly less busy than as they leave as about the same number of people get on as get off.

This is where the benefit would be, in the local passengers. However, with several big companies (BMW's UK head office and Autodesk offices to name just two big employers in Farnborough) who are likely to require international travel (to Germany or the USA in the case of the two companies listed) as well as circa 0.5 million people who would live within a short distance of the 4 stations. All of which could make the extra delay for passengers from Basingstoke (those West/South of there would likely just change at Woking for a more frequent service) worth doing, as Basingstoke would only be about half the population of the other four stations.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,380
Ironically it would seem that southern Heathrow Access trains would be better running through Crossrail - at that point you aren't replacing Waterloo with Paddington, you are replacing Waterloo with any of the Crossrail Core stations as required.

The flat junction where Crossrail joins the GWML that prevents easy access to the fasts is a major constraint it turns out.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,764
Location
Nottingham
Feltham,Hounslow, Isleworth, Staines have significant amounts of its population employed at the airport.A staines to Heathrow journey is quite difficult with an hourly bus service or a 3x an hour TfL bus service to Hatton Cross.
I agree airport employees living to the south are an important market for a Heathrow Southern Link (as well as air passengers).

Most people in Hart (Fleet, Winchfield and Hook) don't actually work in London. It's only about 10-15%. As such local travel makes up the majority of travel to work. At the moment trains at they arrive (heading towards London in the morning peak) at Farnborough are only slightly less busy than as they leave as about the same number of people get on as get off.

This is where the benefit would be, in the local passengers. However, with several big companies (BMW's UK head office and Autodesk offices to name just two big employers in Farnborough) who are likely to require international travel (to Germany or the USA in the case of the two companies listed) as well as circa 0.5 million people who would live within a short distance of the 4 stations. All of which could make the extra delay for passengers from Basingstoke (those West/South of there would likely just change at Woking for a more frequent service) worth doing, as Basingstoke would only be about half the population of the other four stations.
If there is a capacity issue with local travel, it could equally well be addressed by starting some London trains further out - the spaces used on the extended journey would be taken up again by London commuters further in. As with many service decisions it's a balance between the benefits to local journeys and the extension of journey time for longer-distance passengers. In any case I think the extension of a southern service from Woking to Basingstoke is optional for the reasons you mention, and if the flyover is built at Woking it's probably going to be much easier to terminate Heathrow trains there instead.

Ironically it would seem that southern Heathrow Access trains would be better running through Crossrail - at that point you aren't replacing Waterloo with Paddington, you are replacing Waterloo with any of the Crossrail Core stations as required.
The same argument could be made for any of the services that goes into Paddington, and indeed a southern link could include extending Crossrail to Staines. I think the main reason not to go furhter would be the risk of operational disruption of Crossrail when there are problems on the South Western. Crossrail 2, if built, would provide similar city centre access for South Western passengers without having to go via Paddington.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,055
If there is a capacity issue with local travel, it could equally well be addressed by starting some London trains further out - the spaces used on the extended journey would be taken up again by London commuters further in. As with many service decisions it's a balance between the benefits to local journeys and the extension of journey time for longer-distance passengers. In any case I think the extension of a southern service from Woking to Basingstoke is optional for the reasons you mention, and if the flyover is built at Woking it's probably going to be much easier to terminate Heathrow trains there instead.

There's a difference between extending a service from Woking and stopping a service at more stations.

By extending services from Woking would definitely require extra units, whilst calling at extra stations when running to Basingstoke may not require any extra units and therefore there would be very little extra costs in doing so and so the extra revenue in doing so would be worth doing.
 

Heskey4England

New Member
Joined
26 Feb 2018
Messages
1
At the moment trains at they arrive (heading towards London in the morning peak) at Farnborough are only slightly less busy than as they leave as about the same number of people get on as get off.

This is true towards the end of the morning peak but not earlier on, before 8:00, the 7:xx trains are all busy and very few get off as it's too early for people arriving in Farnborough for work or school. I'd definitely agree that the biggest demand would be for extra capacity into Waterloo, it's stretched at the moment and that will only get worse with extra housing planned up the line. The link to Heathrow and Paddington would of course be welcome but not at the expense of capacity into Waterloo.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,055
This is true towards the end of the morning peak but not earlier on, before 8:00, the 7:xx trains are all busy and very few get off as it's too early for people arriving in Farnborough for work or school. I'd definitely agree that the biggest demand would be for extra capacity into Waterloo, it's stretched at the moment and that will only get worse with extra housing planned up the line. The link to Heathrow and Paddington would of course be welcome but not at the expense of capacity into Waterloo.

Which is why I suggested the options, of which only one reduced London bound services, if 4tph was over provision to the more minor stations.

However, given the development proposed it could well be that 4tph in 2025 or later could be about right anyway.
 

InFoTan

Member
Joined
9 Sep 2016
Messages
34
My only complaint about Heathrow Express is that it is a long walk from Terminal 2
Indeed. In contrast, when you walk out of the departure hall at Hong Kong airport, the Airport Express is right in front of you (taxis and buses are not far away). But that airport's only 20 years old and the railway was included in the original design.
 

SaveECRewards

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2015
Messages
737
Indeed. In contrast, when you walk out of the departure hall at Hong Kong airport, the Airport Express is right in front of you (taxis and buses are not far away). But that airport's only 20 years old and the railway was included in the original design.

Eventually, if they finish the plan of knocking down the disused T1 and expanding T2 to fill the space then they should be able to take advantage of the old T1 entrance to the HEX.
 

JN114

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2005
Messages
3,530
Just boarded an Up service at Heathrow. Not quite full & standing; but observed loadings in both units justify it being a 9 car.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top