Arriva Rail North DOO

[Eccles1983]

I'm not sure why it's wishful thinking. While I don't like the idea that an essential public service can be non-existent on a particular day due to industrial action I don't think it's right for all union members to suffer because one union grows too big for it's boots. Like I said in previous posts reforming the ways MPs are elected is more important than reforming union laws.

It's the ROSCOs who want all new trains fitted with DOO equipment to be future proofed, even the TPE 397s will have DOO equipment despite TPE not requesting it. I imagine Porterbrook didn't care about the DOO equipment on the 319s anymore than the third rail equipment.

What ever you think if Northern say "We have new trains available for service but the driver's union is refusing to drive them because they have equipment for DCO even though there are no plans to use that equipment until a proper plan is in place and it's been agreed by the union. Consequently we have had to cancel planned improvements and keep old smaller trains in service longer." The public won't be blaming Northern, Chris Grayling or DfT.

And when thr union says - we will drive them, as long as they disconnect one set of buttons - the public will make a judgement. And knowing what a large portion of the customers think of Northern I reckon they eill blame the company.

 

[Eccles1983]

Well DOO was agreed for all drivers under BR so I would assume its in the Northern Contract somewhere. I suspect it will be up to the lawyers to sort it out.

Nope.

DOO -NP is in my contract. DOO-P isnt.

 

[Bromley boy]

Funny as the companies I've worked for don't offer pay rises (or offer very small rises or only pay rises to those who have excelled in their roles) and also try to recruit people on the cheap if they expect to make a loss, while offer pay rises and offer competitive rates if they expect to make a profit.

Most companies pay the market rate for the staff they employ for whatever job role those staff undertake. If they pay less than this they end up with a high turnover of staff and higher recruitment costs. Profitability is largely irrelevant to this.

My TOC currently underpays drivers. Surprise surprise many are leaving. Unfortunately management is apparently too short sighted to realise that under paying is penny wise, poind foolish as they have a revolving door of expensively trained drivers who leave as soon as they can.

For the last full tax year I didn't complete any tax return because I was employed as an employee, made redundant and then was able to get any further work either as an employee or as a freelancer before the end of the tax year, so I got around £xxxxx in pay, £xxxx in pay in lieu of notice, around £xxxx as a redundancy payment and around £xxxx in out-of-work benefits. Happy now? I notice you seem more interested in how much I earned than whether I'm a front end developer or a back end developer and how much experience I have or what type of projects I worked on for which clients or where my employer was based, which are all relevant in determining whether a salary level is appropriate. Giving a figure and saying it's for a web developer is as useless as giving a figure and saying it's for a driver but not saying whether it's a train, tram, taxi or bus driver.

I note you’re still dodging the real question (annual earnings) as you haven’t said how long it took you to earn the £10k! For the record I couldn’t care less what you earn - it’s just interesting as you seem to spend a lot of time on this forum doing down the jobs others do and the salaries they earn. I have never done your job and I wouldn’t be arrogant enough to question your earnings. I’d be grateful if you could extend the same courtesy to others.

My brother is a web app developer and given that he’s already earning around £60k at the age of 27 I doubt it took you very long to earn £10k...

I’m glad you finally acknowledge that making spurious comparisons between the salaries of completely unrelated jobs in different industries is meaningless.

I actually said either train drivers are overpaid or there's people in other industries who are underpaid, so if you've concluded I think train drivers are overpaid then in your opinion you think those in other industries aren't underpaid. I suggested Dave1987 thought it was the former as he didn't want to give justification for why train drivers are paid as much as they are.

I expect Dave1987 justifies his salary on the basis that he is paid the going rate for the job he does. The fact you’re asking for a justification at all suggests you have some kind of issue with drivers’ earnings.

Driver earnings in particular seem to be a real bugbear for many on this forum. The reality is that train drivers are paid what they are for a number of factors including:

- responsibility of the role;
- inelastic supply (long training period, most applicants fail selection);
- market rate compared to other TOCs.
- unionisation (although collective bargaining actually restricts salaries as I explained above)

Much like any other job really!

 

[Loop & Link]

Most companies pay the market rate for the staff they employ for whatever job role those staff undertake. If they pay less than this they end up with a high turnover of staff and higher recruitment costs. Profitability is largely irrelevant to this.

My TOC currently underpays drivers. Surprise surprise many are leaving. Unfortunately management is apparently too short sighted to realise that under paying is penny wise, poind foolish as they have a revolving door of expensively trained drivers who leave as soon as they can.



I note you’re still dodging the real question (annual earnings) as you haven’t said how long it took you to earn the £10k! For the record I couldn’t care less what you earn - it’s just interesting as you seem to spend a lot of time on this forum doing down the jobs others do and the salaries they earn. I have never done your job and I wouldn’t be arrogant enough to question your earnings. I’d be grateful if you could extend the same courtesy to others.

My brother is a web app developer and given that he’s already earning around £60k at the age of 27 I doubt it took you very long to earn £10k...

I’m glad you finally acknowledge that making spurious comparisons between the salaries of completely unrelated jobs in different industries is meaningless.



I expect Dave1987 justifies his salary on the basis that he is paid the going rate for the job he does. The fact you’re asking for a justification at all suggests you have some kind of issue with drivers’ earnings.

Driver earnings in particular seem to be a real bugbear for many on this forum. The reality is that train drivers are paid what they are for a number of factors including:

- responsibility of the role;
- inelastic supply (long training period, most applicants fail selection);
- market rate compared to other TOCs.
- unionisation (although collective bargaining actually restricts salaries as I explained above)

Much like any other job really!

I have asked @jcollins before why he hasn’t applied for a job on the railway and he didn’t reply.

If we’re all that overpaid (I don’t think I am, personally, I think it’s justified for what I do) then why doesn’t he come and join us?!

 

[CN75]

they don't have legal grounds to refuse to drive them DOO. As was shown when the Southern driver refused to drive a 12 car Gatwick Express.

As long as Arriva make a full consultation on working practice changes and satisfy the risk assessments and safety arrangements, legally there is nothing much a driver could do to refuse to drive DOO. The only real change to what the drivers currently do is passengers getting on or off the train, because they already drive DOO empty trains and have a licence that gives them total responsibilities for safety on a train whether a guard or any passengers are there or not. Arriva will provide that missing training, upgrade the lighting at all the stations involved and then really there is not a lot of manoeuvring to do. That it isn’t in the terms and conditions puts a responsibility on Arriva to attempt to consult it in, and if the attempts fail, they can impose it. There is no legal ground that it’s unsafe possible.

ASLEF can only have a dispute when there is a legitimate legal reason, so Arriva will not formally talk to them about DOO until the last minute. Despite what they say, this is perfect for ASLEF as it allows the company to take the blame while the drivers are protected from actually having to do any striking. ASLEF’s leaders will avoid strikes as far as possible. The courts will only ever conclude that the employer has a final right to tell it’s employees what to do assuming the task is shown to be safe and in line with the job description. Driving trains as you’ve been trained is in the job description.

What is the RMT’s plan B on Northern? If they carry on as they are there won’t be any power to negotiate left.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

They may have legal grounds to refuse to drive them as DCO but to refuse to drive them full stop when they already drive trains with door controls in the cab?

And which trains would those be? None on Northern.

Well DOO was agreed for all drivers under BR so I would assume its in the Northern Contract somewhere. I suspect it will be up to the lawyers to sort it out.

Drivers' T's & C's are governed by agreements which comfortably post-date privatisation. All TOCs at some point negotiated a restructuring agreement to consolidate various allowances into basic rates of pay. Any DOO agreements had to be included. So any TOC without DOO at privatisation had no agreement to subsequently introduce it.

As long as Arriva make a full consultation on working practice changes and satisfy the risk assessments and safety arrangements, legally there is nothing much a driver could do to refuse to drive DOO. The only real change to what the drivers currently do is passengers getting on or off the train, because they already drive DOO empty trains and have a licence that gives them total responsibilities for safety on a train whether a guard or any passengers are there or not. Arriva will provide that missing training, upgrade the lighting at all the stations involved and then really there is not a lot of manoeuvring to do. That it isn’t in the terms and conditions puts a responsibility on Arriva to attempt to consult it in, and if the attempts fail, they can impose it. There is no legal ground that it’s unsafe possible.

Drivers on Northern have no agreement for DOO(P) ie their licenses do not cover driving a train carrying passengers with no guard aboard. Of course Arriva could try imposing DOO but that would trigger a dispute, probably as soon as any attempt is made to assign drivers to DOO(P) training.

ASLEF can only have a dispute when there is a legitimate legal reason, so Arriva will not formally talk to them about DOO until the last minute. Despite what they say, this is perfect for ASLEF as it allows the company to take the blame while the drivers are protected from actually having to do any striking. ASLEF’s leaders will avoid strikes as far as possible. The courts will only ever conclude that the employer has a final right to tell it’s employees what to do assuming the task is shown to be safe and in line with the job description. Driving trains as you’ve been trained is in the job description.

A legitimate legal reason would be a properly constituted ballot as per trade union laws. I repeat, there is no agreement for DOO(P) on Northern nor are their drivers qualified to do it.

 

[Robertj21a]

As long as Arriva make a full consultation on working practice changes and satisfy the risk assessments and safety arrangements, legally there is nothing much a driver could do to refuse to drive DOO. The only real change to what the drivers currently do is passengers getting on or off the train, because they already drive DOO empty trains and have a licence that gives them total responsibilities for safety on a train whether a guard or any passengers are there or not. Arriva will provide that missing training, upgrade the lighting at all the stations involved and then really there is not a lot of manoeuvring to do. That it isn’t in the terms and conditions puts a responsibility on Arriva to attempt to consult it in, and if the attempts fail, they can impose it. There is no legal ground that it’s unsafe possible.

ASLEF can only have a dispute when there is a legitimate legal reason, so Arriva will not formally talk to them about DOO until the last minute. Despite what they say, this is perfect for ASLEF as it allows the company to take the blame while the drivers are protected from actually having to do any striking. ASLEF’s leaders will avoid strikes as far as possible. The courts will only ever conclude that the employer has a final right to tell it’s employees what to do assuming the task is shown to be safe and in line with the job description. Driving trains as you’ve been trained is in the job description.

What is the RMT’s plan B on Northern? If they carry on as they are there won’t be any power to negotiate left.

Thank you for that. Always good to read solid facts rather than the never-ending series of guesses, denials and ranting.
I hope all parties will agree that the facts are as you state.

 

[northwichcat]

The fact you’re asking for a justification at all suggests you have some kind of issue with drivers’ earnings.

No. If you read my posts properly, without jumping to stupid conclusions that sound more insane that anything which come out of Donald Trump's mouth, you'd realise I was questioning why certain roles in the rail industry are so much better paid than roles outside. I didn't say it's because the people who occupy those roles are overpaid and from what I said you could just as easily conclude my opinion is many roles outside the rail industry are underpaid. Dave1987 suggested rail staff get the right salary and those outside are underpaid but when I asked him to explain why he couldn't. If your MP said I'm worth £80,000 a year would you just accept it or would you refuse to believe them if they couldn't back up their argument?

 

[northwichcat]

I have asked @jcollins before why he hasn’t applied for a job on the railway and he didn’t reply.

If we’re all that overpaid (I don’t think I am, personally, I think it’s justified for what I do) then why doesn’t he come and join us?!

While there's times when I like to left to get on with work, I don't want to work completely isolated from other people and being a train driver involves just that.

 

[Loop & Link]

There are other roles apart from train driving though? So why not any of those? Controller, Platform Staff, Conductor, Roster Clerk, the list goes on.

 

[Chester1]

And which trains would those be? None on Northern.

319s? They ran under DOO on Thameslink. I know they are not suited to DOO for Northern without significant modifications but they must have door controls in the cabs? If so introducing 331s with guards opening and closing doors is the same. Id guess they will then try to push through drivers opening doors and guards closing them. Either steps will be hard for the unions to fight without angering the public. I suspect the only time things will really kick off between ASLEF will be when Northern try to make drivers close doors. ASLEF seem to be waiting for that before doing anything, which is a much more sensible strategy than the RMTs.

 

[LowLevel]

319s? They ran under DOO on Thameslink. I know they are not suited to DOO for Northern without significant modifications but they must have door controls in the cabs? If so introducing 331s with guards opening and closing doors is the same. Id guess they will then try to push through drivers opening doors and guards closing them. Either steps will be hard for the unions to fight without angering the public. I suspect the only time things will really kick off between ASLEF will be when Northern try to make drivers close doors. ASLEF seem to be waiting for that before doing anything, which is a much more sensible strategy than the RMTs.

Regardless of your position in this debate (I think mine has been made abundantly clear repeatedly) it is a fact that Northern are contractually obligated to introduce a percentage of working with the driver in sole charge of the train's operation including the doors.

Therefore this doesn't mean that the new units will never be operated by a guard and driver. It does mean that they will, most likely, be operated on a full driver only basis to some degree or that Northern will give up on their contract and chuck the keys in.

Anyone thinking the action will make them come up with a shade of grey is somewhat delusional.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

319s? They ran under DOO on Thameslink. I know they are not suited to DOO for Northern without significant modifications but they must have door controls in the cabs? If so introducing 331s with guards opening and closing doors is the same. Id guess they will then try to push through drivers opening doors and guards closing them. Either steps will be hard for the unions to fight without angering the public. I suspect the only time things will really kick off between ASLEF will be when Northern try to make drivers close doors. ASLEF seem to be waiting for that before doing anything, which is a much more sensible strategy than the RMTs.

Northern's 319s have had guard's door control panels installed throughout the train while those by the driver's seat were isolated and (I believe) plated over. It cost in excess of £10,000 per unit and by all accounts was accepted as necessary with scarcely a murmur. As such the precedent has been set. You are quite right to suggest that ASLEF is playing a waiting game though one reason for this was to give RMT members the opportunity to demonstrate their appetite for the fight before expecting ASLEF members to do likewise. If RMT had taken no action "because it was pointless", as suggested by some here, then there is no chance that ASLEF would take any action either. I'm sure we'd all like a crystal ball but for anyone to suggest that any particular outcome is inevitable is really just guessing.

 

[Chester1]

Regardless of your position in this debate (I think mine has been made abundantly clear repeatedly) it is a fact that Northern are contractually obligated to introduce a percentage of working with the driver in sole charge of the train's operation including the doors.

Therefore this doesn't mean that the new units will never be operated by a guard and driver. It does mean that they will, most likely, be operated on a full driver only basis to some degree or that Northern will give up on their contract and chuck the keys in.

Anyone thinking the action will make them come up with a shade of grey is somewhat delusional.

I am in favour of DOO on Merseyrail but as things stand I am against it on Northern due to the differences between the routes and stations. I am not against a Southern ASLEF style arrangement in the future if there where significant upgrades to infrastructure. This position seems to alienate both sides!

Arriva do have leverage over the DfT thanks to the electrification and 769 debacles and DfT breaching its requirements for the franchise. If Arriva think introducing DCO will cost them too much revanue they can push very hard for excessive infrastructure delay componsation or relaxing the DCO requirements as part of a deal to alter the franchise. A phased introduction is just common sense and Arriva won't want to introduce DCO until it has to in December 2019, a year after the 195s and 331s enter service. Their best option would be guard open and close December 2018, driver open and guard close during 2019 and finally if they cannot obtain concessions from the government then DCO in December 2019.

 

[Carlisle]

Arriva do have leverage over the DfT thanks to the electrification and 769 debacles and DfT breaching its requirements for the franchise. If Arriva think introducing DCO will cost them too much revanue they can push very hard for excessive infrastructure delay componsation or relaxing the DCO requirements as part of a deal to alter the franchise. A phased introduction is just common sense and Arriva won't want to introduce DCO until it has to in December 2019, a year after the 195s and 331s enter service. Their best option would be guard open and close December 2018, driver open and guard close during 2019 and finally if they cannot obtain concessions from the government then DCO in December 2019.

Surely DCO introduction depends mainly on when adequate trains /crew training/ upgraded station lighting/ /sufficient station staff numbers and training are all achieved, what exacly would delaying it all much further achieve if the unions don’t actually demonstrate any signs of willingness to alter their positions one jot, your merely kicking the can down the road for the next franchise .Im no fan of Mr Grayling but he seems to grasp the importance of not simply doing that, even though it’d be the easiest way out for all concerned right now

 

[Chester1]

Surely DCO introduction depends mainly on when adequate trains /crew training/ upgraded station lighting /sufficient station staff numbers and training are all achieved, what exacly would delaying it all much further achieve if the unions don’t actually demonstrate any signs of willingness to alter their positions one jot.

It would get the trains into service and delay the start of major strikes that may reduce substantially Arriva's profits. They can live with the current level of strikes indefinitely so its better for the dispute to grow in December 2019 than this December. As I have said simply introducing the trains with door controls in cabs is a minor victory for Arriva and driver open, guard close, would be another one. It would mean either fighting ASLEF on issues they cannot win or changing the situation to their advantage before the actual introduction of DCO.

 

[Carlisle]

simply introducing the trains with door controls in cabs is a minor victory for Arriva , .

That’s somewhat difficult to believe given BR introdued 158s 165s, 166s and 455s (and probably others) non DOO with functional door controls in cabs 20-30 or more years ago, with 165-6 s being driver door release from new

 

[Chester1]

That’s somewhat difficult to believe given BR introdued 158s 165s, 166s and 455s (and probably others) non DOO with functional door controls in cabs 20-30 or more years ago, with 165-6 s being driver door release from new

But thats not the situation now. It means that if ASLEF blocks DCO in December 2019 they will be refusing to drive trains they are already driving. Alternatively if they refuse to drive them from day 1 with guards then there will be a public backlash and the Tories will portray it as millitant unions blocking the entry into service of brand new trains for the north during a shortage of rolling stock. My view is ASLEF should not fight until DCO is actually planned to be introduced, even if that means refusing to drive trains they are already driving. They simply cannot win over driver open, guard close. It will have public support because it (along with door controls in every coach) slightly increases the time guards can do the customer service part of their job.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Facility will be for Drivers Only release from the cab, Guards from the Saloon like the 319's. ASLE&F will just do what they want regardless of who gets in their way. Just wave the money in front of the majority newer drivers and they will accept it.

There is no sensible reason not to accept driver release, guard close. It is certainly a safe method of operation, it is quicker on arrival, it allows the guard to continue a revenue transaction without passengers being unable to leave until it is completed. And there is still a second safety critical member of traincrew on board. This method of operation is used by VT, XC and was used by Southern pre DOO (and still is where they still use guards e.g. the WCML).

Interestingly, the Class 175s were built to work that way and had to be modified due to this stubbornness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have asked @jcollins before why he hasn’t applied for a job on the railway and he didn’t reply.

If we’re all that overpaid (I don’t think I am, personally, I think it’s justified for what I do) then why doesn’t he come and join us?!

Maybe he doesn't want to. It doesn't appeal to everyone. Pay is not the only consideration when selecting a job to apply for.

 

[scrapy]

Northerns 323s have fully operational driver door controls on the panel in their cabs and ASLEF and RMT members have been happily working the trains for 25 years and not pressing them so I don't see what the obsession with having them plated over is and am pretty sure it isn't on union insistence.

With the 319s it was Alex Hynes who wanted all the guard controls to be within the train saloon to ensure the guard could remain visable and take revenue. Guard controls were put in the cabs (behind the seats) at the same time as they were put in the saloons as agreed with leasing company to allow flexibility in future use but these were plated over by Northern to avoid the temptation of the guard staying in the cab and using them. The driver controls were probably covered also to avoid the guard using them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW the LNR ones do have them in the cabs, as working from the cab is usual for that TOC. The drivers sometimes release when the ECS for the 0713 off Bletchley comes in, as the guard tends to arrive only just before departure, I guess this is based on when they book on, though it seems that half the drivers do and half don't, I guess it must be down to them if they do or not.

 

[causton]

FWIW the LNR ones do have them in the cabs, as working from the cab is usual for that TOC. The drivers sometimes release when the ECS for the 0713 off Bletchley comes in, as the guard tends to arrive only just before departure, I guess this is based on when they book on, though it seems that half the drivers do and half don't, I guess it must be down to them if they do or not.

The LNR ones do not have any panels in the saloons - a massive oversight which means effectively they are tied to the rear cab.

 

[LowLevel]

The LNR ones do not have any panels in the saloons - a massive oversight which means effectively they are tied to the rear cab.

They are intended as a cheap short term ish solution to unit shortages hence why they've not bothered doing much to them - they've been guard worked on various occasions since they came into traffic (The most recent occasion probably being when they used to work on to the WCML?) so it was probably easier to just leave them be.

The Abbey line used to be DOO and was converted to guard operation because the DOO kit is set up for 313 units and was therefore no use with the 319s.

 

[Carlisle]

The Abbey line used to be DOO and was converted to guard operation because the DOO kit is set up for 313 units and was therefore no use with the 319s.

Are you sure? I’m pretty certain the DOO equipment on that line whilst being in situ for many years , has never actually been used .

 

[gavin]

I guess the strike action remains on tomorrow to give passenegers even more disruption after the heavy snow?

 

[Tractor37]

And which trains would those be? None on Northern.

333's that operate out of Leeds have fully working door controls in the cab.

 

[Chester1]

I guess the strike action remains on tomorrow to give passenegers even more disruption after the heavy snow?

It will cause little extra disruption because there will be services that can't be run due to the weather but where staff can still get to the depot, some won't be able to but the vast majority will live in urban areas. Few people will want to do local journeys before 7am or after 7pm when the weather is like this.

 

[PR1Berske]

It will cause little extra disruption because there will be services that can't be run due to the weather but where staff can still get to the depot, some won't be able to but the vast majority will live in urban areas. Few people will want to do local journeys before 7am or after 7pm when the weather is like this.

I'm at a play in Manchester from 7pm until about 9pm. The RMT makes getting home almost impossible.

 

[Andyh82]

In terms of news coverage it’s fallen flat this time, it’s passed most people by due to it being the weekend and due to the snow taking the headlines.