Slow boarding techniques outside Britain and Ireland

[radamfi]

We all know that British and Irish buses outside London board slowly because of widespread use of driver payment and single door operation. Can similarly slow or even slower boarding techniques be found in major cities in other countries?

 

[JonathanP]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. The word 'technique' implies a deliberate strategy being employed by the transite operator to ensure that boarding is slow, but I'm not sure why anyone would do that.

 

[axlecounter]

Slower than driver cash payment? Barter?

 

[radamfi]

Slower than driver cash payment? Barter?

Informal payment methods may well be in place on jitney type services in developing countries. I am particularly interested in main bus services in major cities in developed countries.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. The word 'technique' implies a deliberate strategy being employed by the transite operator to ensure that boarding is slow, but I'm not sure why anyone would do that.

They surely know that faster payment/ticketing methods are available, but choose to ignore them.

 

[farci]

We all know that British and Irish buses outside London board slowly because of widespread use of driver payment and single door operation. Can similarly slow or even slower boarding techniques be found in major cities in other countries?

The main difference is that many European cities have cashless travel - day passes etc - where revenue protection relies on random inspection. The driver is not involved and so the system moves faster

 

[Busaholic]

I would say that graduated fares are what cause boarding times to vary tremendously, far more than any other consideration, cash or cashless. If there is only one fare, then boarding can be relatively speedy: if you have to discuss your destination with the driver, then the opportunities for the discussion to be prolonged are hanging in the air!

 

[Bletchleyite]

We all know that British and Irish buses outside London board slowly because of widespread use of driver payment and single door operation. Can similarly slow or even slower boarding techniques be found in major cities in other countries?

While they use dual door, Dutch operation pre-OV Chipkaart coud be quite slow on those services (e.g. Connexxion inter-urban buses) where you got your Strippenkaart stamped by the driver, particularly if he had to work out how many zones your destination was, even more so if that required a change of bus.

Indeed, Busaholic makes that point as well - the main thing that takes time is having a discussion around the transaction and counting out change. Lothian's exact change cash fare system is no slower than Oyster or similar - you chuck your money in the machine and grab the ticket barely breaking stride.

 

[sheff1]

Boarding minibuses in the Moldovan capital Chisinau can be interesting. Firstly, although they usually have a sliding door many drivers do not use them (possibly because they are broken) so you have to enter via the front door and climb past the gear column and, unless you are first on, past other passengers' shopping etc in the aisle. You also have the payment technique to master - usually drivers take money as you enter but others allow people to board and then, when seated, pass their money forward via fellow passengers - quite a shock the first time some random person in the seat behind hands you some notes ! Finally, when the bus is uncomfortably full ... off you go.

Fortunately for visitors most journeys they are likely to make will be by trolleybus where you board by any door and take a seat and wait for the conductress (or very occasionally the conductor) to sell you a ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Slower than driver cash payment? Barter?

Does any bus company do Chip and PIN?

 

[sheff1]

Does any bus company do Chip and PIN?

When I boarded a bus in Åtvidaberg, Sweden it had what appeared to be a Chip & PIN terminal but as it was broken I never found out and the ride was free as cash is not accepted.

 

[radamfi]

Does any bus company do Chip and PIN?

They've introduced Chip & PIN machines (which also accept contactless) on many buses and trams in the Netherlands in the last year to enable them to phase out cash payment. These are only for people who don't have an OV-Chipkaart, so won't get that much use.

 

[TheSeeker]

A friend mentioned that on a bus from Paris CdG airport recently the only way to pay cash was with contactless. No chip and pin.

 

[paddington]

Does any bus company do Chip and PIN?

Buses in Malmö use Chip and PIN. This was by far the slowest bus transaction I have ever experienced, taking nearly 3 minutes to produce my ticket, during which the driver engaged in unsafe practices such as taking his eyes off the road (especially when it was not a straight route ahead!) to see why the machine was slow. We nearly reached my destination by the time my ticket finally printed (thank goodness nobody else boarded the bus during the journey).

I didn't get a Jojo card as I didn't actually intend to take a bus at all, but found the bus stop by chance and decided to save myself a 30 minute walk by paying £3.17.


In January I went to Perth (Australia) where the only options are cash or the Smartrider card, which is not obtainable at the airport. Fares are the same as cash fares, but a discount is offered if you set up automatic reload, for which a credit card option is available that works with non-Australian cards, although an Australian address is required to create an online account.

Despite ticket machines at every station accepting both cash and card, these only offer single or day tickets. There are only about 10 machines in the entire city where the Smartrider can be topped up and some of these are card only.

Given these constraints, many people prefer to pay by cash, yet I did not notice boarding to be particularly slow, all drivers seemed to be au-fait with counting fares and counting change quickly, and there was no complaint when the recently-arrived tourist in front of me at the airport presented a $50 note for a $5 fare.

Until recently buses in Vancouver (Canada) were coin-only, although pre-paid tickets were also available. Yet because you inserted coins into a machine, this was also very speedy and the machine would give you the right ticket for the amount of money you inserted.

 

[duesselmartin]

The main difference is that many European cities have cashless travel - day passes etc - where revenue protection relies on random inspection. The driver is not involved and so the system moves faster

Rheinbahn in the Düsseldorf area have a system where an electronic device is located at the bus driver to check tickets. However many drivers tell passengers to pass through in order to stay on time. Also the entering at the front, leaving at the back system is systematically ignored.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rheinbahn in the Düsseldorf area have a system where an electronic device is located at the bus driver to check tickets. However many drivers tell passengers to pass through in order to stay on time. Also the entering at the front, leaving at the back system is systematically ignored.

It appears to be ignored in most of Germany, but it doesn't universally apply - in Hamburg for example it used to apply only evenings and weekends (but was routinely ignored then too). I don't know if it's ignored now it appears to apply at all times (except their 3 busiest routes):
http://www.hvv.de/service/rechte-pflichten/einstieg_vorne/

 

[stut]

It was a while ago, but I remember buses in Turku (in Finland) having a completely opaque pricing structure that was not only stage based, but also based on time of day. Not even the people living there had a chance of producing the right change. I think things have improved since.

Japanese buses have the quirky (for us) system of paying as you leave. You board at the back, taking a ticket to show which fare zone you boarded at, and a display at the front shows the fare for each numbered ticket. You then pay the fare as you leave, based on the ticket (or the highest fare if you were daft enough to forget it). Rural trains use the same system.

Inevitably, you'll go over a fare stage just before your stop, so the change you have prepared will not be sufficient, and you'll be fumbling for yen coins that you don't recognise. Multiply this on a tourist-heavy bus, and it's chaos, with politely impatient locals waiting behind you all, and a bus driver doing his best to help you out from a pile of change. Best to use the Suica/Icoca/equivalent card if you can, but there's still quite a few bus companies don't take them... That's for disembarking, of course, not boarding...

 

[Taunton]

Boarding minibuses in the Moldovan capital Chisinau can be interesting. You also have the payment technique to master - usually drivers take money as you enter but others allow people to board and then, when seated, pass their money forward via fellow passengers - quite a shock the first time some random person in the seat behind hands you some notes

Common in old East Europe socialist countries where para-transit minibuses (local Ford Transit type vehicles) have supplanted conventional transit. The honesty is surprising. Commonly flat fare, higher than the conventional operator but more frequent, faster, and stop when you shout. Board by the side door, sit at the back, and pass your money to the passenger ahead. It eventually makes its way forward to the driver, who then (possibly while negotiating a busy roundabout) rustles in a basket on the dashboard for any change required, which is then passed hand to hand back. The most surprising thing is everyone, driver and passengers, keeps up with it all, and who is getting how much change. No tickets. Once we were in a minor accident. All the passengers just got out to get the bus behind, helping themselves to their refunds from the fare basket as they did so.

Old times in Eastern Europe were interesting too. Very low fares, not worth having a conductor. Put your coins into a farebox on boarding and press a handle. The coins were rotated round behind a glass panel, so the last 6 or so fares entered were visible before they dropped into the sealed hopper below. Those with season tickets held them up high for others to see. The many scowling old ladies always sat around the farebox, looked at each payment through the glass, and looked hard at those season tickets. Nobody dared running their gauntlet by putting washers in the farebox.

In Los Angeles 30 years ago express bus operation was overlaid on a flat fare system. Fare 50c within the suburbs, but it would then take the freeway and run nonstop to downtown LA, for which the through fare was 1.50. When boarding you paid either fare into a typical US sealed farebox, local passengers got no ticket as normal, those paying the higher fare were given a "check" for downtown. Just before joining the freeway the driver stopped, switched off the engine, and came down the bus collecting the checks. Restart the engine and off on the fast run. On the return 1.50 was collected in the centre, changing to the normal 50c fare on leaving the freeway.

The first jitneys I encountered were there too, running on a couple of the main streets. Somehow tolerated by the authorities, popular with university students. Ford Econoline minivans, correct coins (same 50c fare as the city bus) to the driver, who indicated if there were seats available by driving with one finger held up. They must all now in later life have Repetitive Strain Injury..

 

[JonasB]

When I boarded a bus in Åtvidaberg, Sweden it had what appeared to be a Chip & PIN terminal but as it was broken I never found out and the ride was free as cash is not accepted.

It's quite common in Sweden as most buses won't accept cash. But they are in general only used as a last resort as the tickets are usually more expensive than if you buy them using prepaid card, apps or in ticket machines.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I imagine it'll have changed in the ensuing 22 years, but I remember the buses (of old, quite literally...) in Malta being slow to board even by mid-90s Yorkshire Rider/Yorkshire Traction standards. The high number of 'Brits on holiday' of which I was one, was probably a factor!

I'd expect that smartcard technology may have even reached Malta by now, though the bus industry over there did go through a bit of a rough patch with Arriva coming in, bringing over loads of ex-London bendies that couldn't fit round many corners or into termini, then turning-tail and fleeing when the backlash inevitably came!

 

[TwistedMentat]

NZ stored value card (think Oyster) in the major centres and some of the more rural areas. Otherwise cash or some other sort of multi trip card to get clipped.

Board at the front, pay/tag on, then when you reach your destination tag off if you've used a stored value card.

Hopefully the new government will kick the national stored value card idea forward or just make some deal for local authorities on contactless.

 

[stut]

Oh yes, Danish Rejsekort. Stored value or debit card linked smartcard. As it's valid for pretty much the whole countries, you need to touch in and out on all transport, including buses. However, it's very easy to forget, even when you're a regular bus traveller. If you do forget to touch out, you are subject to an "idiot fine" (I can't remember the Danish for it) - basically a minimum charge, which is annoying for local transport, but a bargain if you're crossing the country. Anyway.

Apart from a queue to leave the bus, this often leads to the slightly odd situation of people waiting at bus stops for buses to stop so that they can reach in and touch out of a different bus to the one they travelled on.

 

[stut]

And in Guernsey, there's the stored value Ormer card (I love the name - it's a local shellfish, and a nod to the Oyster card).

Great idea in theory, but in practice, it takes an age for the machines to read the cards, if indeed they deign to at all. But the fares are cheaper than cash, so people persist. Great bus service, incidentally.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Melbourne has Myki for tavelling around the City. Sydney has Opal and Brisbane/Gold Coast has Go Card all can be topped up at over 1000 locations across the respective cities and online and set to autotopup they also give discount on certain fares.

 

[paddington]

I'd expect that smartcard technology may have even reached Malta by now

Yes, but the system is rather silly for visitors.

You either have to get a 7-day tourist card, which is good value if you are actually staying for 7 days - I got bored after 3 - or the only other option is a 12-journey card.

Need to take 7 bus journeys each? Then you have to pay in cash for the remaining 2. At least they use a flat fare system so theoretically everyone should be prepared, but some people still try to pay with €10 notes.**

Positives are that the card can be used by multiple people, and when used by multiple people transfers are still taken into account (unlike the Istanbulkart or the SL access card, where I got burned recently (ok, don't care so much about Istanbul as it was really cheap anyway)).

**Malta was a country where every shop was happy that I paid with multiple small coins. Perhaps they have a problem with tourists taking away all their change which means they may need to order a lot in by ship. Even my hotel wanted all my small change though I paid for the majority of my stay by card.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes, but the system is rather silly for visitors.

You either have to get a 7-day tourist card, which is good value if you are actually staying for 7 days - I got bored after 3 - or the only other option is a 12-journey card.

Need to take 7 bus journeys each? Then you have to pay in cash for the remaining 2. At least they use a flat fare system so theoretically everyone should be prepared, but some people still try to pay with €10 notes.**

Positives are that the card can be used by multiple people, and when used by multiple people transfers are still taken into account (unlike the Istanbulkart or the SL access card, where I got burned recently (ok, don't care so much about Istanbul as it was really cheap anyway)).

**Malta was a country where every shop was happy that I paid with multiple small coins. Perhaps they have a problem with tourists taking away all their change which means they may need to order a lot in by ship. Even my hotel wanted all my small change though I paid for the majority of my stay by card.

When I was there, it was pre-Euro... those Maltese Pounds (or Lira, depending on who you ask!) were pretty fiddly!

 

[dutchflyer]

So this is more an overview of the widely varying ways fares are collected in this world of buses.
Back to OQ of radamfi: it seems to me that its typical the British system that leads to excessive boarding times (as % of total trip time), due to loads of different odd fares and most people paying cash-odd fares with lots of change to be given back and awkward single doors etc. In the UK and in most (former) british dependencies (remember Australia and NZ in the 80ies-though they have certainly improved since on this). However, Hungary countrybuses (former Volan, now KK) also feature this. Except that their doors are normal continental 1-1-0.
Here in Thailand, Bangkok at the mo, citybuses have mostly central doors (2 aside) and conductors, they often on heavy traffic do not even bother to get curbside and may stop in the 2nd/3d traffic lane with passengers rushing to- in traffic standing still. Thus they are just as fast as all cars around.
People paying cash-easy rounded fares (in terms of notes/coins needed) are better-but now that in NL its payment by card, suddenly some fares are very odd indeed-were raised with the % of inflation and show amounts that in normal practice cannot even be paid with the usual coins ( 1 and 2 cts not being used anymore). But with card-payment that does not matter at all-same effort.

 

[paddington]

Back to OQ of radamfi: it seems to me that its typical the British system that leads to excessive boarding times (as % of total trip time), due to loads of different odd fares and most people paying cash-odd fares with lots of change to be given back and awkward single doors etc. In the UK and in most (former) british dependencies (remember Australia and NZ in the 80ies-though they have certainly improved since on this). However, Hungary countrybuses (former Volan, now KK) also feature this. Except that their doors are normal continental 1-1-0.

In Australia when I was a child, even though all buses had back doors, they were never opened except at the last stop of a route. This did slow things down as you had to wait for everyone to disembark before boarding. It's different now starting from about 10 years ago when new immigrants started to become bus drivers (before that it was always old white men, at least in the areas I lived in).

I haven't taken that many buses in small-town / rural UK so not sure whether this phenomenon of not using the back door is common here.

People paying cash-easy rounded fares (in terms of notes/coins needed) are better-but now that in NL its payment by card, suddenly some fares are very odd indeed-were raised with the % of inflation and show amounts that in normal practice cannot even be paid with the usual coins ( 1 and 2 cts not being used anymore). But with card-payment that does not matter at all-same effort.

This reminds me of the bus I took to the airport in Faro (Portugal) which cost €2,22! As Google told me the fare in advance, I was prepared, but nobody else was. (IIRC there is a smartcard, but you always get non-regular travellers on airport routes.) I sat in the front seat and watched everyone fumble about with coins, but the driver was extremely efficient in giving change... despite his change box having only a single compartment for all the copper coins! I would have thought that the 1c and 2c are the most difficult to tell apart, and also present the biggest problem when charging this silly amount for a fare.

Also on this point, since the introduction of smartcards in many Australian cities, smartcard fares now all end in odd numbers of cents too. And in Australia 1c and 2c are actually not available any more, unlike NL where they still exist (and are still distributed by De Nederlandsche Bank, even if not used by 99.99% of people**).

When I was there, it was pre-Euro... those Maltese Pounds (or Lira, depending on who you ask!) were pretty fiddly!

Probably because all the coins were round and silver - do you remember how much a bus fare was in MTL?

Most countries transitioning to the euro changed things to nice round numbers, but in Latvia and Lithuania, a lot of prices (e.g. for postage, and train fares) which were nice round numbers in lats/litas became awkward numbers in euro and they haven't been changed yet, requiring lots of copper coins.


**I stayed at a hotel in Amsterdam which I thought I had prepaid in full, but they said I owed €3,17 of tax on check-out. I paid €3,15 in cash and they wanted the remaining 2 cents... which I did not have, so gave another 5c and got 3c in change! I don't know why they didn't just charge it on booking.

 

[radamfi]

I haven't taken that many buses in small-town / rural UK so not sure whether this phenomenon of not using the back door is common here.

Buses in the UK outside London with very few exceptions only have one door!

 

[TwistedMentat]

Buses in NZ are generally 2 door affairs. With both doors opening at every stop if someone at the back door needs to get off. However you only board at the front door. With the increasing use of stored value cards there is starting to be a push for boarding at both doors. Some shorter buses and longer distance buses do have a single front door.