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Britain's bus coverage hits 28-year low

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Dentonian

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The reason is ...... your customers do not want ( cannot?) pay for your increase in wages! If bus drivers wages go up, fares will go up. Most likely your customers will travel less or not at all. No customers = no job. (Unless you think your all your customers would pay more ? ) Take a look at the history of the coal mining industry to see what happens.

I think this is just targetting bus drivers wages' and excusing other costs - and with a number of other comments on this thread, conveniently ignoring major disparities between different routes run by the same Operator.

On average, how much have fares gone up over a given period?

In that same period, how much have drivers' wages gone up? How much has fuel gone up? How much have non-driving costs gone up..............or indeed come down? etc etc.

And; if a bus driver is constantly on a commercial route whereby he/she typically pays in say £200 a shift (maybe £500 on a Monday early duty), is he/she paid the same as a colleague in the same depot paying in say £40 a shift (or £100 on a Monday early)?
 
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overthewater

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The reason is ...... your customers do not want ( cannot?) pay for your increase in wages! If bus drivers wages go up, fares will go up. Most likely your customers will travel less or not at all. No customers = no job. (Unless you think all your customers would pay more ? ) Take a look at the history of the coal mining industry to see what happens.

isn't that how First group used to work?
 

Teflon Lettuce

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The reason is ...... your customers do not want ( cannot?) pay for your increase in wages! If bus drivers wages go up, fares will go up. Most likely your customers will travel less or not at all. No customers = no job. (Unless you think all your customers would pay more ? ) Take a look at the history of the coal mining industry to see what happens.
why can't a wage increase be funded through a lower shareholder dividend? no-one seems able to answer that question... to turn your equation on it's head... higher wages= better motivated staff= better customer service/ performance= better customer satisfaction= more journeys/ passengers willing to pay a higher fare for superior service= better profits! no the only reason why bus drivers aren't paid what they are worth is because of greed among bosses and shareholders... and if you really don't believe that happens... look at Cardiff Bus where a few years ago the finance director said that the company could only afford a small below inflation increase... and then promptly awarded herself an inflation busting double digit increase!
 

Bletchleyite

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But what about people voting for a local council based on them getting lower rates/council tax ? They are voting to save money yet expect to benefit from services in neighbouring areas that people support with their rates and taxes. In that respect the local system is actually fairer.

That is, as I said above, solved by charging ENCTS trips to the home Council, not the host one.
 

daodao

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Town centre decline - the growth of internet shopping is having a massive impact on high street footfall, by as much as 5% a year. It's a massive hit for operators. That's just an average - for every Altrincham with it's food shops with organic hummus and boutiques, there's a Rochdale, dying on its proverbial. .....

Altrincham's shopping facilities have gone downhill markedly since the Trafford Centre opened. George Street is full of empty shops. It still has M&S and a department store (Rackham's, part of House of Fraser) for the time being, but I expect they may disappear with these companies planning to close their smaller outlets. Rochdale has already lost its department store (Beale's).

Both have Metrolink, but bus services (particularly in the evening and Sundays) are continually being cut back, although TfGM has been less radical in cutting bus subsidies than counties like Cheshire and Staffordshire. From April 1st, Macclesfield (of similar size to Altrincham) will only have 4 bus routes serving it on Sundays (so the bus station will henceforth be closed on Sundays apart from bay 9) and Wilmslow will also lose all Sunday bus services from the same date.
 
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Tetchytyke

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The topic is 'Bus coverage hits 28-year low' - not 'Poverty wages and excessive shareholder dividends'.

@Teflon Lettuce was responding to someone who was attempting to claim that paying drivers a decent wage is what has caused the retraction in bus services. I think Teflon Lettuce is entitled to respond exactly how they have, especially as most main bus operations remain extremely profitable.
 

Dentonian

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Altrincham's shopping facilities have gone downhill markedly since the Trafford Centre opened. George Street is full of empty shops. It still has M&S and a department store (Rackham's, part of House of Fraser) for the time being, but I expect they may disappear with these companies planning to close their smaller outlets. Rochdale has already lost its department store (Beale's).

I've not read it, but there is something on the Manchester Evening News website about Altrincham enjoying a shopping renaissance. I'm not sure that M&S would close so many stores in a relatively tight geographical area. They've consolidated the Trafford Centre premises and plan on closing both Denton and Stockport branches (barely 4 miles apart). The Denton closure severely undermining the theory that "our towns are dying because Car parking is so expensive". Denton has something like 1500 FREE parking spaces and just one Pay & Display car park, with 38 spaces.
 

joncombe

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Do people really use them to go across the country though ? Yes there were a few newsworthy occasions when the scheme went nationwide, but I suspect such cases are few and far between.

If the ability to travel around is a good thing generally, then why wouldn't this be the case for someone on holiday for example ?

The last time I took the 50 bus from Bournemouth to Swanage I could only see the two passengers immediately in front of me had passes, one from West Yorkshire, the other the London Borough of Ealing. I think it's an issue in "touristy" areas certainly where pensioners travel to the area for holiday (probably not on scheduled buses) and then use the local buses to travel about whilst they are there. I've even seen some board at Sandbanks ferry bus stop and get off immediately the other side of the ferry, presumably using the bus to avoid having to pay the fee for the ferry to travel as a foot passenger, they probably travelled 100 metres on the actual bus! It does seem rather unfair that the scheme is charged on the area where the pass is used, not where it was issued, as areas which attract a lot of visitors with these passes find the local Council is having to spend money on essentially providing free holiday transport for some pass holders whilst subsidised routes are axed through lack of funds. Dorset recently axed a very large proportion (the majority I think) of subsidised services. I have family that live in Dorset who have seen their bus service cut a service every 20 minutes (Monday - Saturday) to I think 4 or 5 buses a day, weekdays only and only operates between school start and end times (as it uses a school bus).
 

yorksrob

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The last time I took the 50 bus from Bournemouth to Swanage I could only see the two passengers immediately in front of me had passes, one from West Yorkshire, the other the London Borough of Ealing. I think it's an issue in "touristy" areas certainly where pensioners travel to the area for holiday (probably not on scheduled buses) and then use the local buses to travel about whilst they are there. I've even seen some board at Sandbanks ferry bus stop and get off immediately the other side of the ferry, presumably using the bus to avoid having to pay the fee for the ferry to travel as a foot passenger, they probably travelled 100 metres on the actual bus! It does seem rather unfair that the scheme is charged on the area where the pass is used, not where it was issued, as areas which attract a lot of visitors with these passes find the local Council is having to spend money on essentially providing free holiday transport for some pass holders whilst subsidised routes are axed through lack of funds. Dorset recently axed a very large proportion (the majority I think) of subsidised services. I have family that live in Dorset who have seen their bus service cut a service every 20 minutes (Monday - Saturday) to I think 4 or 5 buses a day, weekdays only and only operates between school start and end times (as it uses a school bus).

I suppose that had those two people not been there, you would have been the only person on the bus, which presumably wouldn't have been much goods for the sustainability of the service !
 

richw

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Bus coverage comes down to the willingness of the local authority to be pro active and work with operators to make an area attractive.
A senior figure at First bus reportedly said recently they are only investing where council partners also put in the effort. Cornwall and Bristol are key examples, Cornwall the biggest story, where we hadn’t seen a modern fleet of buses since the VRs. Now we have first Kernow operating 30 new deckers in late 2016, with another 21 double deckers and 20 single deckers due in the next 3 months (relayed to me by a driver friend, from a staff notice board a couple of weeks back).
Cornwall council have supported and invested in all of their partner operators getting modern contactless ticket machines, even the smallest independents (Aline torpoint, hopleys) now have contactless payment facility in place. Compare that to across the Tamar and stagecoach have nothing in place for non cash payments!
Go ahead (Plymouth Citybus) clearly want a slice of the pie and are gradually creeping west, and now have outstations in Par and Bodmin.
Credit in Cornwall goes to Bert Biscoe who is Cornwall council officer for transport, he campaigned tirelessly for better transport for all. It is well known he doesn’t drive so probably has great empathy to the bus and rail network daily.
 

overthewater

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Credit in Cornwall goes Bert Biscoe is Cornwall council officer for transport, he campaigned tirelessly for better transport for all. It is well known he doesn’t drive so probably has great empathy to the bus and rail network daily.

That's the type of person you need in charge of Council public transportation department,
 

joncombe

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I suppose that had those two people not been there, you would have been the only person on the bus, which presumably wouldn't have been much goods for the sustainability of the service !
No I meant the two people in front of me. The bus was 100% or very close to 100% full when it left Bournemouth. This route is well known for leaving people behind because the bus is full. The bus company even had to put up signs to tell people to queue polietly at bus stops as there had been issues with people pushing to get onto the bus and even fights.
 

richw

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That's the type of person you need in charge of Council public transportation department,

Totally Agree, we’re probably bucking the trend and have the best network most in Cornwall can remember. I certainly don’t remember such a good coverage at the frequency’s we have.
Lots of whinging gets seen on first Kernow Facebook, but I suspect that’s down to First Kernow openly sharing about delays, and genuine reasons are given.
 

RT4038

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why can't a wage increase be funded through a lower shareholder dividend? no-one seems able to answer that question... to turn your equation on it's head... higher wages= better motivated staff= better customer service/ performance= better customer satisfaction= more journeys/ passengers willing to pay a higher fare for superior service= better profits! no the only reason why bus drivers aren't paid what they are worth is because of greed among bosses and shareholders... and if you really don't believe that happens... look at Cardiff Bus where a few years ago the finance director said that the company could only afford a small below inflation increase... and then promptly awarded herself an inflation busting double digit increase!
Your question has been answered .... lower shareholder dividend will result in shareholders not wishing to continue in the business, so no job for bus drivers. There is little clear evidence that better motivated staff = better customer service/ performance etc. Maybe, maybe not. If it was your money, would you take the risk?
 

yorksrob

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No I meant the two people in front of me. The bus was 100% or very close to 100% full when it left Bournemouth. This route is well known for leaving people behind because the bus is full. The bus company even had to put up signs to tell people to queue polietly at bus stops as there had been issues with people pushing to get onto the bus and even fights.

Hopefully the train service will offer some relief when it starts. As others have suggested, perhaps the answer is to charge the home area.
 

RT4038

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@Teflon Lettuce was responding to someone who was attempting to claim that paying drivers a decent wage is what has caused the retraction in bus services. I think Teflon Lettuce is entitled to respond exactly how they have, especially as most main bus operations remain extremely profitable.
That is not quite right. Teflon Lettuce was asking what were the reasons for the retraction in bus services and various increased costs were cited as being contributory. One of those costs cited was the 'Living wage'. This opened an exchange about what bus drivers are worth. If costs go up faster than fares then services will get cut. Fact.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Your question has been answered .... lower shareholder dividend will result in shareholders not wishing to continue in the business, so no job for bus drivers. There is little clear evidence that better motivated staff = better customer service/ performance etc. Maybe, maybe not. If it was your money, would you take the risk?
well we've had nearly 30 yrs of paying as little as possible and doing your utmost to demoralise the staff... and where has this lead? oh yes to the report we're all commenting on here... so it's just a thought... perhaps it is time to try another method... and that starts with paying people what they are worth for the job they do... let's put it this way... if we carry on with the same policies then the industry will only spiral further downwards...and eventually it will be in a place where the shareholders will not be able to get a dividend anyways... so perhaps it would be in their best interests to take a short term pain for long term gain.... but that is the problem with greed... it stops you from being able to see beyond the end of your nose!
 

RT4038

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well we've had nearly 30 yrs of paying as little as possible and doing your utmost to demoralise the staff... and where has this lead? oh yes to the report we're all commenting on here... so it's just a thought... perhaps it is time to try another method... and that starts with paying people what they are worth for the job they do... let's put it this way... if we carry on with the same policies then the industry will only spiral further downwards...and eventually it will be in a place where the shareholders will not be able to get a dividend anyways... so perhaps it would be in their best interests to take a short term pain for long term gain.... but that is the problem with greed... it stops you from being able to see beyond the end of your nose!
So has a bus company anywhere started to pay their drivers what they are worth, rather than the 'going rate', so as to attract better motivated staff and thereby through better customer service got passengers to be happy to pay higher fares to pay for it? And be financially successful? Has nobody has thought of doing this in the last 30 years and gained a competitive upper hand by its success? Or have various operators tried and found that the strategy does not actually work in practice?
 

richw

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So has a bus company anywhere started to pay their drivers what they are worth, rather than the 'going rate', so as to attract better motivated staff and thereby through better customer service got passengers to be happy to pay higher fares to pay for it? And be financially successful? Has nobody has thought of doing this in the last 30 years and gained a competitive upper hand by its success? Or have various operators tried and found that the strategy does not actually work in practice?

Between £9-10 an hour has been advertised figures recently I’ve seen on job adverts (east Cornwall/west Devon)
 

Teflon Lettuce

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So has a bus company anywhere started to pay their drivers what they are worth, rather than the 'going rate', so as to attract better motivated staff and thereby through better customer service got passengers to be happy to pay higher fares to pay for it? And be financially successful? Has nobody has thought of doing this in the last 30 years and gained a competitive upper hand by its success? Or have various operators tried and found that the strategy does not actually work in practice?
but there's the problem... my hypothesis is to try upping the wages and taking a one off hit on profits and therefore shareholder dividends... and straight away you turn it round and ask if it's been tried with the passengers paying for the pay increase through higher fares..

here's the point... you pay a driver lets say £10/hr for driving a half full bus around... that's 20 seats filled on a single decker... say average fare is £2.00 that's paying £10/hr to make £40 turnover given that most companies aim for 10% profit it is reasonable to assume that the bus is making £4/hr profit... now let's say you up the wages by 50% to £15/hr it now means, on paper you will make a loss. HOWEVER by paying a decent wage that reflects the responsibilities involved you now longer have to pay any old idiot that's silly enough to apply for the job... you can now pick and choose the people you want driving your buses.. you therefore have a much more professional, motivated workforce who are more likely to go out of their way to make money for the company... you don't have to actually sell that many more seats to turn the same amount of profit as before.

Of course you turn a vicious downward spiral into a vituous upward spiral, as, with more people travelling on the bus, there is less congestion, meaning more punctual buses, meaning more people attracted onto the service, etc etc... and every extra passenger is extra profit.

Now I don't presume to be an economist, but if the current system has consistently failed over the last 30 yrs then isn't it about time we tried a different approach?
 

richw

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Teflon lettuce, driver wage is small change. Fuel, high insurance costs, for 4 vehicles (operating a 2 bus service) last summer the operation I was involved in was over £1000 a month to insure. Our fuel cards were £500 a week per vehicle for 8.5 hour days. And that’s without considering maintainance, road tax, publicity, admin tasks and expenses, accountants,
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Teflon lettuce, driver wage is small change. Fuel, high insurance costs, for 4 vehicles (operating a 2 bus service) last summer the operation I was involved in was over £1000 a month to insure. Our fuel cards were £500 a week per vehicle for 8.5 hour days. And that’s without considering maintainance, road tax, publicity, admin tasks and expenses, accountants,
50% of costs is small change is it? that is the oft quoted percentage of costs for driver wages! In any case, if wages are such small change then there is even less excuse for not improving wages and conditions as by definition any increase would have even less impact on the profitability of the operation!
And before everyone shoots me down for living in cloud cuckoo land... an example:

when I started work in wales I was on £8.50/hr which over the next 5 years increased to £9.50. The owner of the company was making a nice living from the service. However the owner decided to retire and the route passed to another operator... to keep my employment I had to apply to the new operator and accept his wages and conditions.... £8.00/hr. Within a year that operator went bankrupt... despite paying £1.50/hr less.

So any argument that says paying higher wages automatically leads to less profitability is fatuous in the extreme!
 

Silver Cobra

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The X5 does seem to be an exception although I would need to travel on it and observe how ENCTS was being used before commenting. Certainly ENCTS acceptance on the Oxford Tube between Lewknor and Oxford seems perfectly reasonable.

I'm not a regular user of the X5 these days (I use it only around once every 1-2 months), but from my experience the most common flows where ENCTS is used are Bedford - Milton Keynes, Bicester - Oxford and Bedford/St Neots - Cambridge. Bedford - Milton Keynes probably sees the most use. While the withdrawal of service 40 and cutback of service 53 to Cranfield a year ago contributed to this, even when those services ran to Milton Keynes, pass holders generally preferred using the X5. I have seen a few pass holders travel Bedford - Oxford, but it's quite a rare occurrance.
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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Town centre decline: More of an ironic observance. Rochdale and Altrincham have always been poles apart economically, but equally they share one thing. They have always been the two worst "bus territories" in GM. Back in GMT days (way before Metrolink, of course) the depots in the two towns were consistently the worst performers, and it was no surprise that they were amongst the first to close - despite Alty being a nearly new building. This suggests other factors than straight economics at play.

I'm afraid this is historically inaccurate (and given your background you really should know better). GMT closed plenty of depots before Altrincham and Rochdale. For the record: Weaste (January 1986), Leigh (February 1986), Hindley (March 1986), Birchfields Road, Frederick Road, Northenden (all October 1986 at Deregulation). Subsequent closures were technically nothing to do with GMT as buses were run by GMBuses separately from GMPTE's area of responsibility. To continue: Altrincham, Rochdale, Swinton, Tameside (all November 1991) though Tameside's sub-depot at Glossop survived until 2009. Subsequent closures were under private ownership. I would suggest that the closures were much more about reducing the overheads arising from the very existence of depots rather than necessarily reflecting the state of the economy in the immediate environs of individual depots. The complete absence today of any large operation based in Salford is noticeable. It's also ironic that Stagecoach Manchester has a large operation in Sharston barely half a mile removed from the former Northenden depot! It did however effectively replace Princess Road depot. If there has been any trend at all, and it's hardly an obvious one, it's that the depots with the smallest PVRs are more vulnerable demonstrating the value, at least to the bean counters, of economies of scale.
 

Dentonian

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50% of costs is small change is it? that is the oft quoted percentage of costs for driver wages! In any case, if wages are such small change then there is even less excuse for not improving wages and conditions as by definition any increase would have even less impact on the profitability of the operation!
And before everyone shoots me down for living in cloud cuckoo land... an example:

when I started work in wales I was on £8.50/hr which over the next 5 years increased to £9.50. The owner of the company was making a nice living from the service. However the owner decided to retire and the route passed to another operator... to keep my employment I had to apply to the new operator and accept his wages and conditions.... £8.00/hr. Within a year that operator went bankrupt... despite paying £1.50/hr less.

So any argument that says paying higher wages automatically leads to less profitability is fatuous in the extreme!

This seems to be another "sign of the times" Before de-reg it was said that bus drives wages were "only" 70% of all operational costs, and if you got rid of "non productive staff", you would think that would increase above 70%. So, its surprising to see that Drivers wages are now less than 50%. I'm also surprised that fuel is cited as an increased cost. Overall, fuel for motorists has risen pretty much i line with Inflation, and indeed in recent years has risen slower than inflation, so why is it an increasing burden on bus operators. Similarly admin costs (see above) wasn't De-reg supposed to get rid of wasteful admin and admin staff. And if de-reg didn't, what about computerisation?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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This seems to be another "sign of the times" Before de-reg it was said that bus drives wages were "only" 70% of all operational costs, and if you got rid of "non productive staff", you would think that would increase above 70%. So, its surprising to see that Drivers wages are now less than 50%. I'm also surprised that fuel is cited as an increased cost. Overall, fuel for motorists has risen pretty much i line with Inflation, and indeed in recent years has risen slower than inflation, so why is it an increasing burden on bus operators. Similarly admin costs (see above) wasn't De-reg supposed to get rid of wasteful admin and admin staff. And if de-reg didn't, what about computerisation?

Erm... because vehicles would routinely return 11-12 mpg in the past whereas the various environmental changes have massively reduced that - a B7RLE will return nearer 6.

As for pre-deregulation, not convinced firms really knew their cost base!
 

Dentonian

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I'm afraid this is historically inaccurate (and given your background you really should know better). GMT closed plenty of depots before Altrincham and Rochdale. For the record: Weaste (January 1986), Leigh (February 1986), Hindley (March 1986), Birchfields Road, Frederick Road, Northenden (all October 1986 at Deregulation). Subsequent closures were technically nothing to do with GMT as buses were run by GMBuses separately from GMPTE's area of responsibility. To continue: Altrincham, Rochdale, Swinton, Tameside (all November 1991) though Tameside's sub-depot at Glossop survived until 2009. Subsequent closures were under private ownership. I would suggest that the closures were much more about reducing the overheads arising from the very existence of depots rather than necessarily reflecting the state of the economy in the immediate environs of individual depots. The complete absence today of any large operation based in Salford is noticeable. It's also ironic that Stagecoach Manchester has a large operation in Sharston barely half a mile removed from the former Northenden depot! It did however effectively replace Princess Road depot. If there has been any trend at all, and it's hardly an obvious one, it's that the depots with the smallest PVRs are more vulnerable demonstrating the value, at least to the bean counters, of economies of scale.

Apologies, my timeline is haywire. Nevertheless, the reasons for closures were varied, with many of he 1986 closures indeed due to overheads and close proximity of neighbouring depots. Also, before dereg, city area depots were much less profitable than district depots, due to a high proportion of peak only services, higher levels of congestion and presumably higher land values. De-reg changed, with peaks levelled out (M-F shopping hours were virtually the only period of the week that didn't see service reductions overnight on 26/10/86). During GMB days - and periodically before that - I had legitimate access to the performance of both depots and individual services. From that, I can assure you that of he depots left after de-reg, Rochdale and Altrincham were constantly in the bottom two. The reasons for Swinton and Tameside's closures were very different, as both were good performers - usually about 5th & 4th respectively. Swinton depot was actually in line for modernisation, but when all the investigations were done, it was found that there had been a long running drainage problem with fuel oil seeping into the earth below. Obviously, steps were taken to immediately address any environmental dangers, but it proved financial impossible to permanently address it and so the HSE said it was no longer fit to be used as a vehicle depot. Its now, at least partly, a small housing estate. Tameside's closure was a little more mysterious. Despite its modern day problems, Tameside was historically "good bus country" albeit some services better than others. However, it is widely believed that it was closed because of a gigantic "personality clash" between the Director General and the local TGWU leadership (this was before Unite). Economies of scale are obviously always going to be relevant, but it indicative that Tameside's work had to be split between Oldham, Hyde Road, Stockport and Glossop. This lead to a lot of wasteful dead running. I was also talking to a recently retired driver latterly at the current Ashton depot (but previously, Glossop, Whitelands Road and "Joint Board"*) before that and he was saying that before Glossop depot closed, the then MD, Mark Threapleton came up to tell them straight that the reason it was closing was not its small size, but simply because of constant "24/7" congestion between the M67 junction near Hattersley and Tintwisle. He said that if they could find an affordable piece of land and get permission to open a pcv OC, he would move Glossop ops, buses, staff the lot immediately. However, they couldn't so it had to close.
 

Dentonian

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Erm... because vehicles would routinely return 11-12 mpg in the past whereas the various environmental changes have massively reduced that - a B7RLE will return nearer 6.

As for pre-deregulation, not convinced firms really knew their cost base!

Wow! I knew that there had been a consumption penalty in developing cleaner engines, but I didn't know it had anything like doubled! Makes the BSOG terminology even more insult.
 

overthewater

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Streetlite have been reported in getting 14-15mpg...... There save A LOT of money for certain first companies ;)
 
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