Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[Wivenswold]

Well, well, well. Some notable changes there and, yes, very ambitious (possibly not in a good way).

The 720 10 cars on WAML is a surprise, I thought they'd be on the Southend Vic/Chelmsford peaks. I wonder if they are staying there.
The original plan was for the 10 car units to be tacked on at the end of the 5 car production and enter service Dec 19 - Mar 20. So that's been brought forward.
The new "intercity" Stadlers also brought forward as the DEMUs were due to be the first in service.

Interesting talking points there, thanks for the info Jamesontheroad.

 

[Wivenswold]

Ladies and Gents, the first Class 720 under construction - http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...aventra-emus-under-construction-in-derby.html

 

[F Great Eastern]

Updates on expected in-service dates of the new fleets, via Richard Clinnick at RAIL (source)

• March 2019: 5-car Class 720 EMU enter service on GEML.
• April 2019: 10-car Class 720 EMU enter service on WAML.

So it's almost certain that almost all of the 8 car EMUs are going to be replaced with 5 car EMUs on the GEML and the chances of a short formed service that is 12 cars currently on the GEML also went up.

That plan is not match capacity with demand and there's going to be an over-supply on the West and an under-supply on the East unless they end up keeping some of the existing stock on to solve that crisis.

The whole thing is too ambitious, I've said this from day one, and nothing pleases me in saying that everything I am seeing suggests that it is so and that things haven't been properly thought through.

The reasons that GA ignored direct questions about capacity on the GEML for many many months no matter who I asked and turned it into a debate about seating rather than capacity are now very much obvious.

I hope whoever came up with this plan has a thick skin.....

 

[Wivenswold]

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the 10s are going to WAML as an interim measure. Otherwise it makes no sense to have 66 4 car trains worth of Aventra replacing 57 class 317 4 cars on WA and 133 worth of Aventra on GE replacing 145 existing 4 car units (321/360s). That's just nuts.

Perhaps there will be two tranches of the 10 cars, the later batch replacing the Desiros post 1/1/20, they're only start dates after all.

 

[samuelmorris]

I can only assume it means that the 10-cars go to WA first so the worst of the 317s can be laid up. I don't see any implication in that article that the subclasses will be segregated by route. Nonetheless there's no denying how ambitious that plan is and how unlikely it will be to achieve in practice.

I'd give it May/June 19 before we see any meaningful presence of 720s on the line and well into 2021 before all the legacy stock be replaced. Happy to be proven wrong, but with nowhere close to a first unit assembled yet, 13 months to service entry is a pretty tight deadline.

 

[Domh245]

Happy to be proven wrong, but with nowhere close to a first unit assembled yet, 13 months to service entry is a pretty tight deadline.

Just to put a bit of data to that - the first picture of a class 710 undergoing assembly (a picture of the GRP cabfront, so not too dissimilar to where we are with this fleet) appeared mid January last year, and those units aren't particularly close to entering service - 13 months later. Perhaps Bombardier will be able to put them together a bit quicker and the testing process may well be even quicker - but yes, 13 months seems optimistic at this point.

 

[samuelmorris]

Indeed, I think it was around 12 months between the first 345 unit in its entirety being completed and one entering service wasn't it? Not that the 345s being first of the group are that comparable, but still, I don't think for a minute that the timetable proposed there will be achieved exactly.

Don't think there's quite as many as 145 units to replace on the GEML are there? 21 360s and I make it around 103 321s?

 

[LAX54]

And then they will need 'somewhere' to keep them !

 

[Wivenswold]

Indeed, I think it was around 12 months between the first 345 unit in its entirety being completed and one entering service wasn't it? Not that the 345s being first of the group are that comparable, but still, I don't think for a minute that the timetable proposed there will be achieved exactly.

Don't think there's quite as many as 145 units to replace on the GEML are there? 21 360s and I make it around 103 321s?

Yep, my figures are all out of goose there. I'm tired, I'll try to work out what I meant in the morning. As you were everyone.

 

[HLE]

Still all a very ambitious plan in my opinion. It’s good to see the region getting new trains for a change, rather than cast offs, even if the various traction Norwich sign must make it one of the most interesting passenger depots to work at at the minute.

Will be interesting to see what happens to GA & LM 170’s in the next few years. Decent units to be fair.

 

[jopsuk]

The franchise agreement included modding 26 (I think) 317s with PRM upgrades and SDO- is this still happening?

 

[samuelmorris]

Yep, my figures are all out of goose there. I'm tired, I'll try to work out what I meant in the morning. As you were everyone.

No worries

I envisioned it as something like:

21x360 -> 7x 720/1
10x317 -> 5x 720/1
30x321 -> 10x 720/1

47x317 -> 47x 720/5
63x321 -> 42x 720/5
9x321 -> 9x 755/4 (Off the back of the Lowestoft services working through to Liverpool St)

5x153 -> 5x 755/3
9x156 -> 9x 755/3
12x170 -> 12x 755/4

Which leaves an uplift of 3x 755/4. I realise the displacement isn't going to be as like-for-like as that, but it gives some indication of how capacity would be affected in the relevant areas.

 

[Wivenswold]

I can see many of us becoming amateur train planners when the consultation timetable is released in Spring. Can't wait to have a play myself.

 

[LAX54]

I can see many of us becoming amateur train planners when the consultation timetable is released in Spring. Can't wait to have a play myself.

Indeed and of course platform sharing like we have now in P1 at Ips, and 5 and 6 at Norwich will of course be a thing of the past, so a big rejig of the timetable ! lol

 

[Bald Rick]

Wow. What a schedule.

I wouldn't fancy being a GEML / WAML commuter in 18 months time. Nor an Abellio board member.

Happy to be proved wrong of course.

 

[samuelmorris]

It'll be interesting to see, because it's a major rework to the system that concerns my local area. I will have similar interests (if not moreso) with Crossrail.

I imagine leases will end up being extended, dispensation being granted etc. etc. if things don't go to schedule. I'm not entirely sure how much disruption it'll cause to passengers, but I do nonetheless expect there to be great difficulty fulfilling that schedule!

 

[306024]

I can see many of us becoming amateur train planners when the consultation timetable is released in Spring. Can't wait to have a play myself.

Not to spoil your fun, but a few hints.

• That it is relatively straight forward to do a down timetable (from Liverpool St), but then try getting one to work in the opposite direction with suitable turnround times.
• Beware of all those branch lines with single track sections (and don't forget Trowse non-swinging bridge).
• Ensure journey times (including connections where appropriate) are at least similar to today.
• Make sure it can all be platformed everywhere, with non conflicting moves over the station throats.
• Stabling capacity isn't exceeded.
• It generates an efficient traincrew strategy.
• And finally (there's many more but that's enough) remember there is a large port called Felixstowe on the patch. Not everyone that dabbles seems to realise that

Good luck, and to quote Sir Humphrey, this schedule is probably best described as "courageous".

 

[LAX54]

They also need to sharpen up the Freight timetable, some of the times allowed to access Ipswich Yard, or tackle an approach controlled signal, are far wide of the mark, which causes delay to passenger services. Frights used to be about 1400 feet, now they are 2050 or more, and of course heavier !

 

[dk1]

Indeed and of course platform sharing like we have now in P1 at Ips, and 5 and 6 at Norwich will of course be a thing of the past, so a big rejig of the timetable ! lol

Platform 5 at Norwich should still be fine for permissive working. It will hold 8-cars so the 3-car 755s will be fine. Two 4-cars will depend on the difference the power pack makes. Extending Peterborough-Ipswich to Colchester is going to help further south & I can only presume the long layover of the East Suffolk services will be tightened up.

 

[306024]

The East Suffolk services are interesting, especially with the odd through train to London. The hourly service hinges around passing at Beccles. While this gives sensible turnrounds at Lowestoft, the Ipswich end has longer turnrounds by default. Inter working with the Cambridge service is possible at present, but that doesn’t change platform capacity at Ipswich much as the Cambridge and Lowestoft services leave around the same time. The Cambridge service can only work in two ways, passing near Chippenham Jn as now, or passing at Dullingham. The latter costs more units and traincrew.

Inter working with the Felixstowe service could be much more problematic, or not even possible given the constraints of the Felixstowe branch, and with the Peterborough service proposed to go to Colchester, that leaves little else to play with.

 

[87015]

Does the East Suffolk have sprinter line speeds?

 

[dk1]

Does the East Suffolk have sprinter line speeds?

No, it's classed as a light railway really. 55mph max Westerfield to Oulton Broad North.

 

[dk1]

To add to that, the East Suffolk line was reduced in status in 1963. The then line speed of 70mph was dropped to 55mph for DMUs & 45mph for LHCS. Today's DMU speed remains but freight is limited to 20mph with the exception of Nuclear Flask traffic which has dispensation to run at 40mph.

 

[47421]

Couple of extracts from Franchise Agreement below. Does anyone know if Automatic SDO has been fitted to any 317s? How many of the 96 platforms have beacons now? And re 105.2, does that imply platform extensions at the listed stations? Has any work started?

Automatic Selective Door Operation Installation
9.1 By no later than 31 October 2018, the Franchisee shall incur expenditure of not less than [REDACTED35] to ensure that Automatic Selective Door Opening technology is operational on twenty seven (27) Class 317 units (the "Class 317 Upgrade Units"), the provision of such Automatic Selective Door Opening technology to encompass correct side door enable and the installation of trackside beacons to ninety six (96) platforms.


105.2 Pursuant to paragraph 105.1 such changes to the infrastructure shall include such infrastructure works at each of Hertford East, Wickford, Manningtree, Kings Lynn, Elsenham, Ware, St Margarets and Enfield Lock Stations as are necessary to enable any Passenger Services comprised of 10 rolling stock vehicles to call at such Stations by no later than 1 September 2018​

 

[GEcommuter]

So it's almost certain that almost all of the 8 car EMUs are going to be replaced with 5 car EMUs on the GEML

Could two fives be joined together for those services that would otherwise have been an 8-car 321?

 

[bonzawe]

To add to that, the East Suffolk line was reduced in status in 1963. The then line speed of 70mph was dropped to 55mph for DMUs & 45mph for LHCS. Today's DMU speed remains but freight is limited to 20mph with the exception of Nuclear Flask traffic which has dispensation to run at 40mph.

Which brings me back to a question I asked months ago. Given the new units are articulated are the axle loads low enough for the DMU restriction to apply or are are they like the 185 where heavier axle loads mean lower restrictions might apply?

 

[samuelmorris]

Could two fives be joined together for those services that would otherwise have been an 8-car 321?

They absolutely could, the point F Great Eastern is making is that an insufficient number of units have been ordered to actually enable that to happen very much.

 

[Alfie1014]

No worries

I envisioned it as something like:

21x360 -> 7x 720/1
10x317 -> 5x 720/1
30x321 -> 10x 720/1

47x317 -> 47x 720/5
63x321 -> 42x 720/5
9x321 -> 9x 755/4 (Off the back of the Lowestoft services working through to Liverpool St)

5x153 -> 5x 755/3
9x156 -> 9x 755/3
12x170 -> 12x 755/4

Which leaves an uplift of 3x 755/4. I realise the displacement isn't going to be as like-for-like as that, but it gives some indication of how capacity would be affected in the relevant areas.

With the Train Planner (Rtrd) coming out in me I'd say its a little more complicated than that.

The new units 'should' achieve better availablity than the existing disperate fleet so in respect of the pure EMUs it might look more like this;

21 x 360s = 20 diagrams today = 80 cost peak vehicles (in traffic in the peak) 95% availability
57 x 317s = say 50 diagrams = 200 vehicles 88% availability
103 x 321s = 90 diagrams = 360 vehicles (assumes 4 units not in daily fleet for Renatus works so 90 out of 99) 91% availability
Total = 640 vehicles

22 x 720/10 = 20 diagrams = 200 vehicles (or equal to 240 vehicles equivilent in old money) 91%
89 x 720/5 = 84 diagrams = 420 vehicles (or 504 vehicles) 94%
Total = 744 vehicles (an increase of over 100 vehicles on today's fleet).

Though direct comparisons are complicated by the fact that some 379s today work diagrams that the 720s will work in future and how (or if) the new Stansted and Norwich sets will interwork on 'other' services.

In respect of the bi-modes don't forget that the Pboro-Ips service is due to go 'hourly' with most extended to Colchester (the FA says 13 out of 16 daily) which will need at least 4 rather than 2 diagrams of today and the Norwich - Cambridge service gets extended to Stansted (another 2 diagrams). As 12 car fixed formation will more Stansted Express's call at other stations?

I note that in Railway Gazette's report on the construction of the 720s http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...aventra-emus-under-construction-in-derby.html GA are reported as saying; "Greater Anglia said the exact specification of the interior had not yet been signed off, but the EMUs would have a mix of 3+2 and 2+2 seating. It highlighted that the seats would offer lumbar support, seat-back tables and plug and USB points. The interiors would be ‘light and airy’, with wide inter-car gangways, air-conditioning, underfloor heating, accessible toilets, free wi-fi and information screens indicating empty seats."

Which the comment regarding the specification still not being signed off and a mix of seating is interesting to say the least!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a mix of 3+2 and 2+2 in the original specs we saw posted on here. The 2+2 is in the end sections and could be converted to 1st if that is decided in the end to be retained.

But for a 3+2 commuter train they are indeed quite a high spec. I'd take them in exchange for the 350/2s, as we probably will be.

 

[samuelmorris]

With the Train Planner (Rtrd) coming out in me I'd say its a little more complicated than that.

You're right of course that it is more complicated than that, but equally, you can't just take the total number of vehicles because they're in fixed formation - 10 car sets can't be split up to any less than 10, 5-car sets can't be split up to any less than 5. The net increase in vehicles is all well and good but it doesn't necessarily allow for the same capacity increase across the board as the numbers suggest because you are confined to making the choice of whether to replace 8-car services with 5 or 10, and whether 10-car services replace solely 12-car services from today, or any 8-car services that are not appropriate to run with only 5 (which I imagine there will be many of, particularly on the WAML where 317s, as far as I know, don't work in 12-car formation).