Before the wires go up... Prepare for double-deckers?

[route:oxford]

The Great-Western Mainline has fairly relatively high clearances at present (thanks to being built originally to broad gauge).

Would it be completely unrealistic to build/rebuild the electrified section (say London-Swindon-Bristol & London-Oxford) with double-decker services in mind?

It would mean it would have rolling-stock that couldn't ever be used elsewhere, but with the stock being built for use for 30-40 years in the same place, it shouldn't be too ludicrous.

 

[MCR247]

IEP will operate on this route taking over the HSTs.

 

[EWS 58038]

I think in time.. perhaps 10 to 15 years the decition will be made to go DD. Afterall... it will increase the capacity by around 45% per train.

Crossrail will face the same problems in ten to 15 years... And the'r not building it DD ready... that's why CrossRail will be a good one in the next years... but a desaster in the future, as the demand just requires 14 to 20 trains an hour to be double decker.

 

[tbtc]

I could see it working on a diesel line or a "self contained" electrified line like c2c okay, but not the GWML

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I could see it working on a diesel line or a "self contained" electrified line like c2c okay, but not the GWML

Just out of interest, why do you think it would work on c2c and not GWML? Surely the point of DD is to increase capacity without increasing the number of trains. I would have thought that the GWML, of all the lines in Britain, would be the one that would require it most.

 

[don24]

I think in time.. perhaps 10 to 15 years the decition will be made to go DD. Afterall... it will increase the capacity by around 45% per train.

Crossrail will face the same problems in ten to 15 years... And the'r not building it DD ready... that's why CrossRail will be a good one in the next years... but a desaster in the future, as the demand just requires 14 to 20 trains an hour to be double decker.

It would be a nice idea for crossrail to have double deck trains however I would imagine that if you increase the diameter of a tunnel after going through initial designs, it would cost millions. Not only that you would have to rectify the clearance issues on the Great Eastern.

 

[LondonLarry]

I think double decker trains are excluded on high frequency/density routes due to the amount of time it takes to board/alight. They're quoting up to 24hrs in the peak, which gives a headway of 2.5min per train. I'm not sure this would be enought time to get people on and off the train!

Are there any other countries that use double deckers for high density travel? I haven't seen any pics of them operating in Japan.

 

[gordonthemoron]

munich has a similar frequency of s-bahn trains through the Stammstrecke as Crossrail will have, it too is computer controlled. None of the trains are double decker and the volume of passengers is such that at the busiest stations, Hauptbahnhof, Karlsplatz and Marienplatz, there are platforms on both sides of the train to speed up boarding & alighting.

The trains are up to 12 coaches long, but probably 8 coaches mainly. There are 3 sets of double doors on each side per carriage.

Compare this with DB double deckers which only have 2 sets of double doors on each side per carriage

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Are there any other countries that use double deckers for high density travel?

Paris - definatelly the "RER" (suburban commuter route which is underground in central Paris but overground in the suburbs) - but I think also more generally. We saw a lot of double-decker commuter trains whilst on the Eurostar heading towards Gare du Nord.

If you look up Haussmann – Saint-Lazare on Wikipedia there's a photo of a double decker train in the (underground) station. Apparently the tunnels were built unusually large to allow catenary wires.

 

[jon0844]

Sydney has double decker trains, but I believe they're actually scrapping them and going for regular ones. So that prompts another question; how many people have had double deckers and swapped them for singles?

 

[Mojo]

I've never been in favour of doubledeck trains but it's something I've never been able to place why. Japan has quite a bit of short-distance travelling, and that is why they are quite uncommon there - standing room is seen as more important, not seated. I think it does increase dwell times and also reduces the actual number of doors you can put in the side of the train. Traditionally you'll only find that half the car is actually doubledeck with the outer two on one level: http://media.photobucket.com/image/...s section/madameconcorde/Forums3/P1040534.jpg unless you put doors at the end of the coaches: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/2284868404_7185e13711.jpg?v=0. Another problem I found also is lack of luggage capacity. Outside of the trains like TGV Duplex, many doubledeck trains don't have overhead luggage racks meaning you have to take out space for coach-end luggage racks.

Anyone thinking it increases capacity by 100% is sadly mistaken, the French managed around 45% on end-doored TGVs. Also let's not forget the different loading gauge, anything built for the UK would have to bear in mind the high centre of gravity, potentially restricting the cant, something to consider given our loading gauge (obviously not a problem on the generous LGV).

I just can't see the sums adding up for doubledeck trains. Bear in mind that the FGW local services generally run as half the length currently of some of the third rail trains coming in from south of the river.

RER line A which has some doubledeck trains (not all are), has an average peak frequency of every 2 minutes in the core section.

 

[D1001]

Reminds me of the Genesis song 'Get em out by friday' - they had a potential solution to fitting double decker trains in existing infrastructure:

This is an announcement from Genetic Control:
"It is my sad duty to inform you of a four foot restriction on
humanoid height."

"I hear the directors of Genetic Control have been buying all the
properties that have recently been sold, taking risks oh so bold.
It's said now that people will be shorter in height,
they can fit twice as many in the same building site."

 

[90019]

Sydney has double decker trains, but I believe they're actually scrapping them and going for regular ones.

Where are you getting that from?
All of the CityRail AC units are currently double deck, as are the next ones (the A sets, I think?). The only single deck ones are the diesel units running on certain lines (Hunter line and one other IIRC).

AFAIK, all other railways in Austrailia are all single deck.

 

[LondonLarry]

Paris - definatelly the "RER" (suburban commuter route which is underground in central Paris but overground in the suburbs) - but I think also more generally. We saw a lot of double-decker commuter trains whilst on the Eurostar heading towards Gare du Nord.

If you look up Haussmann – Saint-Lazare on Wikipedia there's a photo of a double decker train in the (underground) station. Apparently the tunnels were built unusually large to allow catenary wires.

I've been on the RER in Paris so I should've thought of that one!

 

[caughtonatrain]

Are there any other countries that use double deckers for high density travel?

Apart from many local transport systems around the world, there are uses on 'high density' regional and long distance routes:

Italy uses them, e.g. the Genoa - La Spezia trains along the Italian Riviera.
French TGV Duplex
German CityNightLine sleepers
Dutch trains along the Rotterdam-Amsterdam corridor

 

[jopsuk]

Japanese high-density, shortish distance, slowish (140mph) speed Shiskansen use double deckers, and much like theTGV Duplex, often as doubled up units!

 

[jon0844]

I'd rather have more regular trains than a less frequent service that can move many more people in one go (which seems to be favoured in some parts of the world).

If we had a more regular service then the need for double decker trains would only be for a very short time during peak operation.

 

[asylumxl]

in the end everything comes down to economics on the british rail network. If they were willing to spend money to run double decker trains, they'd have the money to just run more frequent and longer single deck train, which wouldn't require anywhere near as much change to the infrastructure..

 

[tbtc]

Just out of interest, why do you think it would work on c2c and not GWML? Surely the point of DD is to increase capacity without increasing the number of trains. I would have thought that the GWML, of all the lines in Britain, would be the one that would require it most.

Due to the infrastructure changes required.

C2C has always been pretty self contained (apart from the late evening Liverpool Street journeys - so if it hypothetically went double decker then you'd only need to change the bridges etc on this self contained route.

However, with the GWML, you have direct trains from London to a number of destinations - Newquay/ Torbay/ Fishguard/ Hereford/ Penzance/ Weston etc - meaning you'd either have to raise bridges (etc) on all of these lines (even though some of them only get one or two trains a day - plus diversonary/ ECS routes too), have a "two tier" railway (with double deck trains on the "core" Bristol/ Swansea/ Plymouth services and single deck trains allocated to the "rural" destinations - and hope no double deck train was every mis-allocated!), or withdraw the direct links from the rural destinations to London.

I'm all for increasing capacity, but double decker trains (which I've used in Toronto a few times) seem to work best on a self contained system

 

[krus_aragon]

Are there any other countries that use double deckers for high density travel? I haven't seen any pics of them operating in Japan.

GO Train commuter services in southern Ontario (Canada) are double deckers. They also have proper freight trains over there: I counted one at over 150 multimodal wagons, and some of those were double deckered!

 

[Mojo]

GO Train commuter services in southern Ontario (Canada) are double deckers. They also have proper freight trains over there: I counted one at over 150 multimodal wagons, and some of those were double deckered!

I can't believe that there is the demand for double decker trains on those routes! According to the timetables on the operators' website, trains run sporadically, if at all, off-peak, which goes against any transport planner's bible.

This doesn't seem too uncommon anywhere in North America - I wonder what their secret is?

 

[90019]

GO Train commuter services in southern Ontario (Canada) are double deckers. They also have proper freight trains over there: I counted one at over 150 multimodal wagons, and some of those were double deckered!

There's quite a few North American companies running double decker; Go Transit as mentioned, NJT, Amtrak California, Metrolink, LIRR, Caltrain, Sounder, New Mexico Rail Runner Express (Who I think have very good looking trains; click), ACE, Northstar, FrontRunner, Metra (who have double deck 2 car EMUs as well; click),Trinity Railway Express, Tri-Rail, MARC, Southern Pacific, and Amtrak have the Superliners, which i suppose would be considered double deck.
Those are all the ones I can think of, but I'm sure there will be more.

 

[jopsuk]

I can't believe that there is the demand for double decker trains on those routes! According to the timetables on the operators' website, trains run sporadically, if at all, off-peak, which goes against any transport planner's bible.

This doesn't seem too uncommon anywhere in North America - I wonder what their secret is?

A lot of the systems use freight lines- there's huge amounts of freight traverses North America on massive trains. There's enough demand for peak hours services, and because they have no public service remit, and the paths are at a premium as the freight operators own the lines, peak hours services is all they run.

It is what would would happen if all services here were open access...

 

[90019]

A lot of the systems use freight lines- there's huge amounts of freight traverses North America on massive trains. There's enough demand for peak hours services, and because they have no public service remit, and the paths are at a premium as the freight operators own the lines, peak hours services is all they run.

It is what would would happen if all services here were open access...

It seems that it's often the norm for the longer distance Amtrak services to be hours (sometimes over 24 hours) late.

 

[jopsuk]

They really are entirely at the mercy of the freight companies. On the other hand, the long distance services aren't really intended on being useful for actually getting places; it's the journey they sell.

 

[jon0844]

So arriving 24 hours late means you had a longer 'journey' and should perhaps pay more. For goodness sake, don't let any TOC read that here in case if gives them ideas

 

[j0hn0]

I used to travel from Haarlem to Amsterdam every day on a double decker train. There are 2 types in Holland, DDM (old knackered and stink of p155) and the VIRM which are fantastic trains.

Whilst gauge clearance will create up to 45% capacity for passenger trains, surely it will double freight capacity?

If containers are able to be loaded on top of each other, then would they not need half the paths?

I can't see it happening in England.

Can someone please answer me this, I've asked many times to no avail.

Why are train floors so high in england?

Surely the best option is to lower the floor on single decker coaches to provide roomier, more capacious carriages.

Given that from every train I´ve ever used, I have had to step down onto the platform, why is this the case?

 

[thelem]

If containers are able to be loaded on top of each other, then would they not need half the paths?

I doubt you would be able to get two shipping containers on top of each other, as they are already quite tall. Besides, I would assume the limitation with freight was the total weight of the train, rather than the length. Passenger trains are limited by length because of platforms.

Why are train floors so high in england?

Surely the best option is to lower the floor on single decker coaches to provide roomier, more capacious carriages.

I've never seen the ceiling height being an issue on a train, so I can't see any need to increase the floor-to-ceiling distance. Given that, I think it's best to have the train floor level as close to the platform level as possible.

 

[90019]

I doubt you would be able to get two shipping containers on top of each other, as they are already quite tall. Besides, I would assume the limitation with freight was the total weight of the train, rather than the length. Passenger trains are limited by length because of platforms.

I think he means using wagons similar to those used in America, where the bottom container is right down between the bogeys, so they can have a second one on top, and keep the centre of gravity as low as possible. They are also often articulated.

http://4rail.net/4rmedia/nam/usa_seattle_stackstrain1_L.jpg

 

[j0hn0]

indeed I am.

and thelem, lower floors also means lower centre of gravity, like articulation, and it also means that the train can be wider from lower, facilitating 3+2 seating, but with decent size seats and leg room.

All english trains look "perched" to me

Still no-one answering 'why' the floor is so high and we always have to step down onto a platform.