Level crossing accident on Arun Valley Line 17/02/18

[theageofthetra]

Cannot say, just looking forward to the report so we can talk about it. (Cannot not say as in ~I know, but cannot say here as you all well know why)

Certainly look forward to reading about any GSMR issues.

 

[Signal Head]

Is there any safety learning to come out of the incident that hasn’t already been reported on? If - as we all suspect - it’s a fairly open/shut case of motorist drove onto correctly functioning AHBC when they shouldn’t have and was struck by train; then all those waiting to read all the gory details in a full RAIB report may well end up disappointed.

I would hope no-one reads RAIB reports for 'gory' details, but for the technical analysis of what went wrong, and how to reduce the chances of a reoccurrence.

I wouldn't be surprised if this causes some discussion on the 'Another Train Coming' arrangements if, as suggested on here (and backed up by information in the industry) the incident is a case of the car driver going round the barrier after the first train had passed, presumably in the belief that the crossing had failed.

As mentioned up thread, this warning used to be given by an 'active' sign, which illuminated only when a second train struck in with the crossing already activated.

High installation and maintenance costs of the neon tube type signs resulted in their replacement with a passive sign ("Another train coming if lights continue to show").

I suggest there is a possibility that such a sign, when seen every time the crossing is used, regardless of how many trains are approaching, and therefore how long the crossing remains closed, could tend to lose its it impact over time. There will now be cheaper alternatives to neon tubes of course, so I wonder whether we will see a recommendation to reintroduce an active sign.

 

[theageofthetra]

BTP have just released this.

http://media.btp.police.uk/r/15183/family_pays_tribute_to_grandfather_and_grandson_w

 

[Tio Terry]

I would hope no-one reads RAIB reports for 'gory' details, but for the technical analysis of what went wrong, and how to reduce the chances of a reoccurrence.

I wouldn't be surprised if this causes some discussion on the 'Another Train Coming' arrangements if, as suggested on here (and backed up by information in the industry) the incident is a case of the car driver going round the barrier after the first train had passed, presumably in the belief that the crossing had failed.

As mentioned up thread, this warning used to be given by an 'active' sign, which illuminated only when a second train struck in with the crossing already activated.

High installation and maintenance costs of the neon tube type signs resulted in their replacement with a passive sign ("Another train coming if lights continue to show").

I suggest there is a possibility that such a sign, when seen every time the crossing is used, regardless of how many trains are approaching, and therefore how long the crossing remains closed, could tend to lose its it impact over time. There will now be cheaper alternatives to neon tubes of course, so I wonder whether we will see a recommendation to reintroduce an active sign.

One of the reasons for ditching the flashing neon sign was that it was mains powered with no back-up battery system. This meant that if the mains power supply to the crossing failed trains had to be cautioned over the crossing.

I can well remember a journey from Peterborough to Norwich following a thunderstorm and being cautioned over every AHB along the route - and there are quite a lot! Around 90 mins late in to Norwich.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would hope no-one reads RAIB reports for 'gory' details, but for the technical analysis of what went wrong, and how to reduce the chances of a reoccurrence.

I wouldn't be surprised if this causes some discussion on the 'Another Train Coming' arrangements if, as suggested on here (and backed up by information in the industry) the incident is a case of the car driver going round the barrier after the first train had passed, presumably in the belief that the crossing had failed.

As mentioned up thread, this warning used to be given by an 'active' sign, which illuminated only when a second train struck in with the crossing already activated.

I, like probably most on here enjoy reading the RAIB reports for the technicalities etc - the "gory" details are already known and don't need repeating. I look forward to this report but assume, everything on the railway was working correctly and it was a simple error of judgement on the part of the deceased

I wondered what happened to the "Another Train Coming" illuminated signs; surely a case for reintroduction with back-up supply?

 

[Tio Terry]

"I wondered what happened to the "Another Train Coming" illuminated signs; surely a case for reintroduction with back-up supply?"

Not impossible, but very costly - which is why they were done away with in the first place. Neon signs need very high voltages so providing a back up supply that will last 12 hours is a bit of an engineering challenge! But maybe a flashing dot matrix could be used instead. But there are those who would still think there was a technical failure and drive around the lowered barriers. Only a physical deterrent would work - like those barriers that rise up out of the road that I have seen on facebook and youtube.

 

[LAX54]

So how do train drivers know that the crossing has deployed correctly?

They don't, however if a set of AHB's have failed, or show 'failed' in the Signalbox, then the Signaller will get hold of the Driver via the GSM-R to advise him of the situation, the Signaller will get also get a 'failed' indication if the barriers are lowered for more than 3 or 4 mins, (this can happen if there is a slow moving train, or sometimes with two trains that overall take longer than the 3 mins) again he will advise the Driver of the circumstances
AHB's are designed to fail in the lowered position. Signaller will also get a failed indication if one or more of the red lights have failed as well.

 

[Muzer]

I can understand why the neon signs were withdrawn. However, nowadays there are plenty of low-power alternatives. I feel that if a proper assessment were done, there would be a very strong case for installation of (eg) flashing LED signs.

 

[LAX54]

I don’t get why they don’t get rid of railway wig-wags and use normal traffic lights. I bet a small proportion of drivers believe the wig-wags are just warnings rather than a legally enforceable light. Just put normal lights and a red light jumper camera up and I’m sure there’d be more respect.

People ignore ordinary red lights too ! Red Flashing means MANDATORY STOP for ALL vehicles including the Emergency services, also a Police Officer (or Rail Staff) CANNOT authorise anyone over a failed AHB crossing with red lights flashing, even if the Signaller (which he will not) gives permission)

 

[Steggets]

I don’t get why they don’t get rid of railway wig-wags and use normal traffic lights. I bet a small proportion of drivers believe the wig-wags are just warnings rather than a legally enforceable light. Just put normal lights and a red light jumper camera up and I’m sure there’d be more respect.

Wig-wags also apply to pedestrians whereas normal traffic lights don't.

 

[FOH]

Thanks for all your responses. I think the point I was trying to make hasn’t made it through. What I was trying to say is that regardless of the special status that wig wags give I have doubts over how many of the population truly understand this and whether they believe they are more restrictive than normal traffic lights.

If you think about other things in life, a fixed red light usually trumps anything else, especially versus flashing lights. Going back to traffic lights, flashing amber means pass with care whereas solid amber is stop if it’s sfe.

 

[LAX54]

In Gibralter, they have red flashing lights on the Main Road that crosses the runway, they have no problems there with cars stopping !

 

[Varney]

Plenty of locations in the UK have them too. Fire stations, airports etc.

https://goo.gl/maps/ToDp4jFpaBr
https://goo.gl/maps/VgLYfAkmtH82

 

[Tunnel Bore]

I would hope no-one reads RAIB reports for 'gory' details, but for the technical analysis of what went wrong, and how to reduce the chances of a reoccurrence.


As mentioned up thread, this warning used to be given by an 'active' sign, which illuminated only when a second train struck in with the crossing already activated.

But here it seems there was a third and fourth train in quick succession because of the split and join formations at Horsham and it was the third train that impacted, sadly. Would "another train coming illumination" have made a difference here I wonder?

 

[Llanigraham]

Thanks for all your responses. I think the point I was trying to make hasn’t made it through. What I was trying to say is that regardless of the special status that wig wags give I have doubts over how many of the population truly understand this and whether they believe they are more restrictive than normal traffic lights.

If you think about other things in life, a fixed red light usually trumps anything else, especially versus flashing lights. Going back to traffic lights, flashing amber means pass with care whereas solid amber is stop if it’s sfe.

Then I suggest that too many drivers haven't read their Highway Code.

From my own experience of controlling a crossing drivers know exactly what the wigwags mean, but they think they know better, and they don't apply to them.

 

[Varney]

But here it seems there was a third and fourth train in quick succession because of the split and join formations at Horsham and it was the third train that impacted, sadly. Would "another train coming illumination" have made a difference here I wonder?

Has this been confirmed yet though?

Incidentally, is it normal for services to be split at Horsham, or was this due to the diversion because of engineering works on the coastway?

 

[FOH]

Then I suggest that too many drivers haven't read their Highway Code.

From my own experience of controlling a crossing drivers know exactly what the wigwags mean, but they think they know better, and they don't apply to them.

Interesting to hear first hand experience. Referring back to my earlier post, do you think normal traffic lights accompanied by an obvious red light camera would make a difference?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Incidentally, is it normal for services to be split at Horsham, or was this due to the diversion because of engineering works on the coastway?

It's the normal means of operation on that line.

 

[HowardGWR]

Has this been confirmed yet though?

Incidentally, is it normal for services to be split at Horsham, or was this due to the diversion because of engineering works on the coastway?

It's normal. Both Southampton and Portsmouth trains split from those to Bognor..

 

[Varney]

It's the normal means of operation on that line.

It's normal. Both Southampton and Portsmouth trains split from those to Bognor..

Ok, thanks.

 

[Railsigns]

Only AOCL, ABCL & AOCL+B types of automatic crossings operate with flashing white lights to indicate to the train driver that the crossing is operating correctly.

You can add AFBCL to the list. Automatic Full Barrier Crossing, Locally Monitored.

 

[theageofthetra]

In Gibralter, they have red flashing lights on the Main Road that crosses the runway, they have no problems there with cars stopping !

The barriers and blokes with guns tend to focus attention.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I wondered what happened to the "Another Train Coming" illuminated signs; surely a case for reintroduction with back-up supply?

Surely an LED "Another Train Coming" signal could be introduced along with a 24V battery backup.

Incidentally, is it normal for services to be split at Horsham, or was this due to the diversion because of engineering works on the coastway?

Its normal for services to attach and divide at Horsham. One TPH goes to Pompey Harbour, one TPH goes to Southampton Central and two go to Bognor Regis. The returns run to Horsham where the Bognor to London services attach to the Soton / Pompey services then run jointly from Horsham to London Victoria.

 

[Wivenswold]

The barriers and blokes with guns tend to focus attention.

Now there's an idea. Not shooters at every crossing, just random.

I'm joking, I think.

 

[Mathew S]

From my own experience of controlling a crossing drivers know exactly what the wigwags mean, but they think they know better, and they don't apply to them.

I'll just recount a conversation with my father this morning when he'd seen this in the news "Well it's the railway's own fault, the barriers come down so early that it's natural for people to assume they're broken and go around them." So I explained why that's a magnificently stupid thing to do and, from my limited knowledge, why there has to be some closed time before/after trains come through. All I got was "Well it's the railways fault, they need to do it better. A few seconds either side of a train should be more than enough."
Much as I think my father is a numpty, I'm sure he's not alone in his views. People are just terrifyingly dim sometimes.

 

[Wivenswold]

I'll just recount a conversation with my father this morning when he'd seen this in the news "Well it's the railway's own fault, the barriers come down so early that it's natural for people to assume they're broken and go around them." So I explained why that's a magnificently stupid thing to do and, from my limited knowledge, why there has to be some closed time before/after trains come through. All I got was "Well it's the railways fault, they need to do it better. A few seconds either side of a train should be more than enough."
Much as I think my father is a numpty, I'm sure he's not alone in his views. People are just terrifyingly dim sometimes.

I feel your pain, my mum once said "If we win the lottery we're moving to Spain. To get away from all the foreigners round here". Sorry off-topic but we're all here for each other.

 

[6Gman]

Then I suggest that too many drivers haven't read their Highway Code.

From my own experience of controlling a crossing drivers know exactly what the wigwags mean, but they think they know better, and they don't apply to them.

Personally I find the barrier across the road sufficient reason to go no further.

On a slightly different note it seems that the road crosses the railway at quite an acute angle. Could that create difficulties? We have such a crossing round here, and I know it has created particular issues in the past (though in that case it was people driving off the road onto the railway!).

 

[Llanigraham]

Interesting to hear first hand experience. Referring back to my earlier post, do you think normal traffic lights accompanied by an obvious red light camera would make a difference?

As has been pointed out you cannot use normal traffic lights because of the way they are treated by emergency service vehicles.
And as for cameras, pah! We had a an obvious cameravan, plus BTP personnel standing at the lights and still people ignored the lights on one occasion.

 

[MarkyT]

I'll just recount a conversation with my father this morning when he'd seen this in the news "Well it's the railway's own fault, the barriers come down so early that it's natural for people to assume they're broken and go around them." So I explained why that's a magnificently stupid thing to do and, from my limited knowledge, why there has to be some closed time before/after trains come through. All I got was "Well it's the railways fault, they need to do it better. A few seconds either side of a train should be more than enough."
Much as I think my father is a numpty, I'm sure he's not alone in his views. People are just terrifyingly dim sometimes.

Warning time can vary quite a bit according to crossing type and application. At automatic half barriers of various types it can be as little as 27 seconds from the yellow first lighting to the train arriving. At full barrier supervised crossings with signal interlocking, whether manually operated or using the latest OD technology arrival of the train can be several minutes after the start of the warning sequence, and the longer the closed time the more likely a road closure for one train will overlap that for another one on a busy multi-track line, leading to the seemingly endless closures seen in some places. People who experience these regularly may tend to think it's the case for all crossings. At AHB the closures are deliberately made very short. They're designed that way firstly to not to overly impede road traffic and secondly to discourage weaving round the barriers which is acknowledged as a major risk that increases with the time the barriers are closed. Crossings are very carefully designed to ensure that the vast majority of trains arrive within a tight 'window' and special measures are taken where a station platform is in the strike in for instance, with stopping/non-stopping controls applied.

 

[FOH]

As has been pointed out you cannot use normal traffic lights because of the way they are treated by emergency service vehicles.
And as for cameras, pah! We had a an obvious cameravan, plus BTP personnel standing at the lights and still people ignored the lights on one occasion.

Hmmn interesting, possibility reinforces my opinion that ignorant drivers don’t realise it is a mandatory stop