FCC Restrictions not in London Zone

[MrCub]

Hi there; sorry if this has been covered before but a quick search didn't help me.

I know of and understand the FCC evening restrictions from St Pancras to Luton on weekdays; however, the information is a little vague about whether the restrictions apply if the journey is out of their 'London Zones'.

For example, if I purchase an Off Peak Day Return with NSE from Luton to Portsmouth travelling after 10am on a weekday, National Rail suggests I can return when I like in the evening. This is because the complete journey is not to London. Is this right?

However, last week I had to take a train to Thatcham; I was told that because I would have to join a train from London to Luton, I would not be able to travel between 1630 and 1901. I was also told that NSE tickets are not valid during this period. I'm not sure this is right.

So, what do I do? The FCC literature is deliberately vague and doesn't cover journeys which start further south than their 'London Zone' area.

Additionally, if I buy a Daysave ticket to Brighton, and choose to return on a train which happens to pass through London during the peak, and I in the wrong?

All help appreciated

Mr Cub

 

[yorkie]

Hi there; sorry if this has been covered before but a quick search didn't help me.

I know of and understand the FCC evening restrictions from St Pancras to Luton on weekdays; however, the information is a little vague about whether the restrictions apply if the journey is out of their 'London Zones'.

For example, if I purchase an Off Peak Day Return with NSE from Luton to Portsmouth travelling after 10am on a weekday, National Rail suggests I can return when I like in the evening. This is because the complete journey is not to London. Is this right?

CDR - OFF-PEAK DAY R SWT
00000 - +ANY PERMITTED


Restriction : B1
OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays to
Fridays before 0930

RETURN TRAVEL
By any train

(This ticket is valid via London)

However, last week I had to take a train to Thatcham;

on what ticket?

Assuming an Off Peak Day Return from Luton to Thatcham:

Restriction : TS
Valid as listed below Mondays-
to Fridays (by any train on
other days)

OUTWARD TRAVEL
Valid on the train shown and
all later trains:

Bedford 0910
Flitwick 0919
Harlington 0923
Leagrave 0929
Luton 0934
Luton Airport Parkway 0916
Harpenden 0922
St Albans 0929
Radlett 0934
Elstree & Borehamwood 0938
Mill Hill Broadway 0943
Hendon 0931
Cricklewood 0935
West Hampstead Thameslink 0938
Kentish Town 0942
London St Pancras
International 0930
Farringdon 0935
City Thameslink 0939
London Blackfriars 0934
London Bridge 0942

RETURN TRAVEL
Valid by any train

If it was a Thatham to Luton then:

OUTWARD TRAVEL

By any train scheduled to
arrive London Terminals or
Kensington Olympia at or after
1000.

RETURN TRAVEL
By any train

I was told that because I would have to join a train from London to Luton, I would not be able to travel between 1630 and 1901.

Who said this? I hope you got their name so that they can be re-trained.

I was also told that NSE tickets are not valid during this period. I'm not sure this is right.

NSE tickets are valid all day Sat/Sun/Bank holidays and from 1000 Mon-Fri.

So, what do I do? The FCC literature is deliberately vague and doesn't cover journeys which start further south than their 'London Zone' area.

Refuse to pay an excess. Ask them what the restriction code is, and what it means. If they refuse to look it up ask to speak to their manager/supervisor. Ask for their name and make a note of it. If they do look it up they will see that they are wrong, in which case they should apologise and promise not to do it again.

Additionally, if I buy a Daysave ticket to Brighton, and choose to return on a train which happens to pass through London during the peak, and I in the wrong?

"DaySave tickets are not valid for a northbound return journey on any service which leaves London St Pancras between 1630 and 1901 Monday to Friday."
That means you can't use it on a train that calls at St Pancras between those times. If it had said "journeys commencing" between those times then the 1617 BTN-BED would have been valid throughout but it doesn't say that unfortunately. (This is the case with Off Peak Day fares on Cross Country as documented in a previous topic).

 

[MrCub]

Yorkie, I thank you very much once again for your excellent advice.

Mr Cub

 

[paul1609]

Hi there; sorry if this has been covered before but a quick search didn't help me.

I know of and understand the FCC evening restrictions from St Pancras to Luton on weekdays; however, the information is a little vague about whether the restrictions apply if the journey is out of their 'London Zones'.

For example, if I purchase an Off Peak Day Return with NSE from Luton to Portsmouth travelling after 10am on a weekday, National Rail suggests I can return when I like in the evening. This is because the complete journey is not to London. Is this right?

However, last week I had to take a train to Thatcham; I was told that because I would have to join a train from London to Luton, I would not be able to travel between 1630 and 1901. I was also told that NSE tickets are not valid during this period. I'm not sure this is right.

So, what do I do? The FCC literature is deliberately vague and doesn't cover journeys which start further south than their 'London Zone' area.

Additionally, if I buy a Daysave ticket to Brighton, and choose to return on a train which happens to pass through London during the peak, and I in the wrong?

All help appreciated

Mr Cub

The FCC Evening restrictions only apply to tickets to/ from stations in the London Travelcard area. So Portsmouth and Thatcham would be okay as Yorkie has said.

 

[MrCub]

This is as I thought but revenue officers manning the gates (including two especially odious characters) don't seem to understand this!

 

[yorkie]

This is as I thought but revenue officers manning the gates (including two especially odious characters) don't seem to understand this!

Get their names and report them to FCC.

 

[glynn80]

Get their names and report them to FCC.

A lot of people might disregard yorkie's consistent comments informing posters to report these illinformed members of staff, but really this is the only way to get the message to the TOCs that their staff are not getting sufficient training in the more complex areas of our ticketing system.

 

[MrCub]

The problem with reporting them however is that the TOCs (especially FCC) really couldn't care less. Nothing will change. I would really like the senior management to send 'secret shoppers' to Luton station to see the utterly awful standards of customer service. Some of the ticket office staff are so rude it beggars belief but the real problem is the lazy attitude of the ticket staff who are more interested in being on their telephones, texting, chatting with friends, taking coffee.

Also, if one suddenly takes staff names, you can be sure of a hostile reaction. Last week I was stopped from going to the platform because my ticket wasn't valid until 9am; the train wasn't due until 9.10am. I attempted to go to the platform at 8.50am and was verbally abused. I am so fed up with them.

Sorry, rant over!

 

[jon0844]

Also remember that if you buy an off-peak Travelcard then they CANNOT stop you getting a train (or going through the barriers) if it stops anywhere in the zones covered by the ticket.

And if the train stops anywhere within, say, zones 1-6 and the station in zone 6 isn't within the restricted zone (which it almost certainly won't be) then you can travel all the way. Technically, you may need to step off and back on the train at the station - but you cannot then be excessed.

The downside is you may have to take a slower service, but it's possibly better than paying extra or waiting until after 7pm.

Does anyone know if FCC is still taking your Travelcard when you return to Potters Bar - even though you're still able to use buses outside with it?

 

[Lee_Again]

And if the train stops anywhere within, say, zones 1-6 and the station in zone 6 isn't within the restricted zone (which it almost certainly won't be) then you can travel all the way. Technically, you may need to step off and back on the train at the station - but you cannot then be excessed.

Not sure that this is true. My understanding is that ticket restrictions are based on the stated origin. Breaking a journey does not change the conditions. Therefore, saying that you took a journey from a Zone 6 station will not stop the excessed being charged; even if a Zone 6> ? is valid.

This is like the Preston/Glasgow example. Because saver tickets to Glasgow (or whatever they are now called) are valid any train from London, including a break of journey, you should always buy one of these when traveling to Preston during peak times. They are cheaper than an Anytme return. You can also use the return portion without restriction. (i.e. in the morning peak) because you could say that a break at Preston was taken. My point is, on the return journey, the conditions as applied from Glasgow are enforced. That fact that you break your journey at Preston does not change the conditions. Preston>London savers not valid, Glasgow>London (from Preston) are valid.

 

[jon0844]

If I buy a ODTC from Hatfield (which isn't in the restricted area now, but was for a VERY short time) then I'm effectively buying two tickets - a return to the boundary and a Z1-6 ticket.

In my case, that means Hatfield to Hadley Wood. When I come home, my normal return is used up and I cannot travel again. However, the ticket is still a valid travelcard and if I bought another Hatfield to Hadley Wood ticket single/return I could keep the other ticket to use in London again (except they'll try to retrieve the ticket from me at Hatfield unless I insist on keeping it). I presume the train would need to stop there, or maybe not, but that's not really the issue.

If I cannot board a train at King's Cross or Finsbury Park between 1630-1900 (or whatever) then that would only affect me if I had a standard london terminals ticket. With a Travelcard, FCC is unable to implement the evening restrictions - and this is what allows you to travel to the area that ISN'T restricted. After all, I could quite easily have got to, say, Oakleigh Park or New Barnet by using the bus, a taxi, walking etc.

The posters show where the restrictions apply and for what destinations. As it happens therefore, it's now only the outer-suburban stations.

I have absolutely no doubt that FCC would have to let you board a train that goes to your (restricted) destination if you said you were getting off early - as you're entitled to do as many times as you want when you have a ODTC. If you stay on, perhaps they can charge the excess (note; this is all they can do - they cannot give you a penalty fare, so you're no worse off now as you were if you paid beforehand) but if you step off and on - surely that's now considered a break of journey?

Let me repeat; this 'trick' would only work if you had a Travelcard, not a normal return ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Off Peak Travelcards are valid within the zones at all times after 0930, so a Travelcard from Hatfield can be used to Hadley Wood at any time. But what you can't do is get a FAST train to Hatfield as it is then not valid beyond Finsbury Park.

 

[Lee_Again]

I live in Stevenage, which as you will know is in the restricted zone. I did inquire about break of journey rules and my earlier post is based loosely on the response I was given. I also checked with Barry Doe (if you know who he is - if not see Rail Magazine) and to my surprise agreed with the info I was given.

I actually based my question around barrier programming as they could not possibly know if a customer has broke their journey or not. Nevertheless, our questions and points remain the same.

I will check back through my records but I still stand by my original comment. The tickets validity is based on the origin (in this case London). Therefore, getting a stopper and reboarding at Hatfield, for example, does not change the restrictions. Even though my journey starts from Hatfield, or anywhere in the zones for that matter, the original restriction still applies.

 

[jon0844]

Hatfield wouldn't work - it's outside Z6!

You'd need to alight at any station outside the restricted area, but inside Z6. On the GN side that would mean somewhere like New Barnet or Oakleigh Park - two stations where peak trains stop. However, in the new timetable, I believe these services now terminate at WGC, so no good for you. Do the services beyond WGC stop anywhere between Finsbury Park and Stevenage? If not, you are buggered to Stevenage!

I swear that nobody would get done this way - even if they try and suggest it's in breach of their rules. If you boarded, genuinely, at New Barnet having been there and not starting from King's Cross, the rules cannot apply. They cannot override TfL's own rules. I suspect it has never been tested and so they can say what they like for this reason and nothing else. Rather like someone accepting a fine from a police officer for allegedly trespassing by passing a sign saying 'do not cross the line'. It doesn't make it right just because someone gets away with it.

And if you'd only travelled from New Barnet (or Hadley Wood), then what would they excess you? As if you'd come from King's Cross? Would THAT be enforceable?

 

[Lee_Again]

These are some details taken from the FCC website. I am not an expert (que Yorkie) but I presume FCC can't introduce rules that contradict the National Rules.


Q Is travel restricted if I join the train further along the route?
A The return portion of these tickets is restricted if you join a northbound train within area B and travel to area D. Also restricted, are journeys from area C with a return ticket valid for a journey from area B to area D as shown on the zone map above. Travel is unrestricted if you join a northbound train in area C or D and are not travelling on the return portion of a ticket valid from a station in area B to a station in area D. If your entire journey begins and ends within areas B and C on the map then the restrictions do not apply. These restrictions also do not apply to customers departing from London King’s Cross and travelling to Dullingham, Newmarket, Ely, Wymondham, Whittlesea and stations to King’s Lynn. Tickets from stations in area A to any destination are not affected by these restrictions.

and additionally, this quote...
"The return portions of Off Peak Day Return (Cheap Day Return), One Day Off Peak Travelcard, Family Travelcard and DaySave tickets are no longer valid for travel where the return journey starts at any station in area B and ends at a station in area D on trains that depart from Moorgate, King's Cross and St Pancras International (or passing through St Pancras International) between 1630 and 1901 Monday to Friday.

The above restriction also applies to customers joining trains in area C if the ticket they are using is for the return journey from a station in area B to a station in area D."

 

[yorkie]

Well one thing is for sure, if you are on a stopper from London the RPIs cannot excess you south of Hadley Wood (inclusive), and they cannot stop you boarding a train that stops within the zones. If an RPI boarded north of Hadley Wood, then it gets interesting. Hopefully the resulting confusion and argument would take up so much of the RPIs time that they'd be prevented from doing too much excessing.

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?iCmsPageId=134 That has to be the most complex set of rules ever. It is disgusting that FCC are allowed to do this, the legality and enforceability of it must be questionable.

Interesting articles:

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=393

http://www.railwaypeople.com/rail-n...ponse-to-london-travelwatch-release-1129.html

http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2006/08/new_loophole_in_chaotic_rail_r.html

Interestingly FCC's excuse, made by Elaine Holt who was MD at the time and who is by FCC's own definition a "fare dodger"[1] (although I wouldn't call her that), is that the trains were overcrowded due to a shortage of units. Now they have additional units and a timetable that gives vastly more capacity yet they persist with the crazy fares. So either Elaine Holt lied or the new regime has overruled her. I wonder which it is?

[1] She was issued a penalty fare in 2006, FCC call people who are issued with PFs "fare dodgers" in this article although I personally don't see how that can be the case as penalty fares are not meant to be issued to people who are avoiding payment. But anyway that's what they call her and her fellow penalty fare holders.

 

[glynn80]

Can I just clarify, is the question if you have an ODTC that is valid out of a London Termini in the peak, can you board a service regardless of whether you have purchased your extension or not?

If this is the question, the answer in the FRPP is as follows:

Travelcard Excess Fares

Where possible excess fares, including those issued at a discount to the holders of valid Railcards, should be purchased before the journey starts, but they may also be obtained on the train or at the destination, subject to Penalty Fares Scheme regulations.

So basically it seems that you can board a service, so long as there is not a Penalty Fares Scheme confliction (usually that you must buy before you board if there are the facilities available).

 

[Lee_Again]

I'm not sure there are any services with that stopping pattern but you could do, Oakleigh Pk>WGC>Stevenage.

Actually, there are the Moorgate>Stevenage services via Hertford (if you fancy spending the evening getting home).

I agree with all your arguments, I used the exact same when I questioned them originally but if anywhere does not abide by 'common' sense it's the railways.

I am going to look at the general conditions for break of journey in the manuals. I'll report back.

 

[jon0844]

The above restriction also applies to customers joining trains in area C if the ticket they are using is for the return journey from a station in area B to a station in area D."

I'd love to know if this is enforceable or legal. It seems they've tweaked/tightened up the rules, perhaps because the 'trick' was widely talked about during its introduction.

But, I am still convinced you can board a train at King's Cross (or St Pancras) if you were intending to alight before any station in area D. At this point, you could still 'chance it' and carry on - and the very worst that would happen is you're made to pay the EXACT same excess as you would have paid in the first place. So, you're no worse off as you may well get away with it.

With the introduction of gates, it may be harder if they're correctly set up to stop these tickets - but at many stations with woefully inadequate numbers of gates, they open them up when there are too many people. WGC for example HAS to open the gates as it's a serious safety issue and FCC has always been fearful of a possibly serious incident.

At this point, I must point out that I'm not specifically against the peak restrictions, and certainly don't condone fare evasion if someone thought that the gates being opened at peak hours meant you could get away without paying. However, the sad fact is that at these times, it really is quite easy to get away with it - and I'm merely highlighting this and suggest they do something about it.

Update: Actually, as I re-read the above quote, it still makes me think it's only able to refer to a standard return ticket (say Stevenage to London Terminals) and not a ODTC. FCC may say it, imply it or do whatever they want - but surely they're selling a ticket to the boundary with a TC tagged on.. in which case, your ticket isn't Stevenage to King's Cross, and as such restricted.

I suspect a proper lawyer would need to argue the case - but what's the point if the new timetable means you'll be on a train so slow, you may as well wait (almost!) or simply cough up to save yourself the arguing. In fact, the better thing to do now is try and get rid of the restriction now there's loads more capacity as part of this new timetable.

 

[yorkie]

If you say "can I get round this?" they will say no.

But if you give them this scenario (for example) it may change their answer:

"I get a Off Peak Travelcard from Stevenage and I work in London in late morning, and in the afternoon I work in Gordon Hill, can I leave Gordon Hill on the 1718, 1748 or 1818 services from Gordon Hill to Stevenage?"

They are hardly going to say stepping off and on a train is going to get round it, but in reality it would if they accept the above scenario.

It really isn't clear but unfortunately I think they may have covered themselves with this one.

There is no doubt that an Off Peak travelcard can be used as far as Zone 6, so the question really is if RPIs get on after Zone 6, or getting out of the barriers, if you have a case then.

 

[glynn80]

There is no doubt that an Off Peak travelcard can be used as far as Zone 6, so the question really is if RPIs get on after Zone 6, or getting out of the barriers, if you have a case then.

Also are you permitted to get a non-stop service out of a London Terminal?

 

[jon0844]

If you had a ODTC and they're claiming the destination is therefore London, not the boundary (Hadley Wood) then why are they allowed to claim this? I mean, if you've got a ODTC, your destination could be East Croydon or similar. In fact, it could be ANYWHERE in zone 6 - well outside the restricted area.

Without looking, isn't it true that they don't apply the restrictions on the TL side south of the river, presumably as people have the option of using the unrestricted Southern services instead?

 

[yorkie]

Also are you permitted to get a non-stop service out of a London Terminal?

a non-stop train to somewhere out of the Zones? They can definitely excess you, as you can't give the excuse that you are using your Travelcard within London.

It only works for stoppers because they're valid within the zones, but what I am saying is that when you get beyond the zones I am unsure if the loophole works. I suspect it doesn't, but the RPIs are unlikely to be bothering with almost empty stoppers at shacks like Welham Green when 8-car wedged trains are whizzing past on the fast lines with potentially many more passengers to 'ching'.

 

[Lee_Again]

Question for the experts...

Are ONDC (peak or otherwise) Stevenage > Kings Cross + zone 1-6 TC or Stevenage to boundry zone 6 + zone 1-6 TC

would either of these definitions affect the T&C's.

Question - if boundry ticket+TC, can you legitemately use a fast service across the boundry?

Anyway, I hate FCC and Elaine Holt. I see she has moved to the new team getting ready to take over NXEC. I have noticed no differences at all after the restrictions were put in place. Except, and I have seen this more than once, families turning up at Kings Cross with young kids and getting ready to be home by 6(ish) being told to payup or wait until after 7. Now, if you want to return about 6 you need a peak ticket, and in which case you may as well use it in the morining peak too. Hardly reducing numbers at all. Even if the restrictions were lifted during school hols it would be a start.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As an aside, other run ins I've had with FCC (or possible WAGN/GNER) was with these two gems

1) no passengers allowed to board GNER trains over the xmas period unless a reservation was held - que the "f*** Off" comment to the barrier police when I pitched up with a season and was refused entry.

2) After a concert at Knebworth (Oasis I think!) posters at Stevenage saying only holders of special tickets would be allowed access to the platforms - que the "not if I'm a f****** season ticket holder" email. I had no intention of using the train that late, but I might have done and this isn't th point. You pay a fortune to be able to use any train.

Do these companies think people are stupid? And they wonder why customers get angry. I do feel sorry for the employees.

 

[jon0844]

It only works for stoppers because they're valid within the zones

The problem is that gatelines can stop you, forcing you to have to argue with staff that may not fully understand the rules, or will try and enforce rules that aren't enforceable. So many variables (like can they do it if you boarded in area B, do they excess you only on the station from the boundary, is a ODTC classed as a London ticket - so you are still treated as if you started from area A even if you didn't).

The evening peak thing is a mess - and it would be better if EVERYONE acknowledged an evening peak (including London) or nobody. I wonder how well it works from Liverpool Street, which has had the restriction a while before FCC introduced it.

I am certain introducing a peak on the tube or bus network would be a nightmare, although it may reduce numbers in theory. In practice, people will just stump up the money - which must be what FCC is hoping.

Mind you, the 1906 train from KGX is packed, so clearly a lot of people either wait or adjust their schedule to make that the train they'll aim for. The last time I got this, it was just a 4-car service and packed out. I wonder if this is now a 6 or 8-car train?

 

[glynn80]

I am certain introducing a peak on the tube or bus network would be a nightmare, although it may reduce numbers in theory. In practice, people will just stump up the money - which must be what FCC is hoping.

There is a peak time period on the Tube, at least with regard to Oyster Fares.

Basically, peak Oyster single fares apply from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900 Monday to Friday (excluding public holidays).

 

[yorkie]

Mind you, the 1906 train from KGX is packed, so clearly a lot of people either wait or adjust their schedule to make that the train they'll aim for. The last time I got this, it was just a 4-car service and packed out. I wonder if this is now a 6 or 8-car train?

It's now 4 car and 12 minutes later at 1918 according to the FCC timetable!

 

[OwlMan]

posted in error

 

[jon0844]

Basically, peak Oyster single fares apply from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900 Monday to Friday (excluding public holidays).

I didn't know that regarding an afternoon peak!

 

[philjo]

I have a season ticket from Potters Bar to a station north of Stevenage.
Travel from Potters Bar is not restricted in the evenings.
I did enquire regarding validity of the combination of tickets if I was going to London.
FCC did tell me (& i have this in writing) that I could use the combination of an off-peak return to Kings Cross or ODTC & my season ticket for the non-stop train home during the evening peak hour, as Potters Bar is not a restricted station & the season ticket rules applied for combining tickets i.e. the train did not need to stop at the point where tickets overlapped.
In practice, whenever I have needed to go into London on weekdays, I have always needed a peak return/travelcard as travelling before 0930, so not yet tested this.