The Sunday Times: 'Ironing board' seats

[class387]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ft-in-pain-by-trains-concrete-seats-d2qzdkcp9

They are the most expensive trains ever built, acclaimed by ministers as the answer to passengers’ prayers. But they are being spoilt by what could be the least-liked railway feature since the replacement bus.

Travellers on large parts of the rail network are in open revolt against “cheap”, “painful” and “concrete” seats in state-of-the-art carriages.

“They are very hard. Hundreds of people I speak to have complained,” said Neil Middleton, chairman of the Association of Public Transport Users, which represents passengers on Thameslink, the line worst affected so far. At a cost of £2.8bn, its entire fleet has been replaced — and all 115 new trains are equipped with so-called “ironing-board” seats, nicknamed for their shape and texture.

Calling the trains “dire” and “really off-putting…

Also in today's print issue, along with a diagram of the IC70, Grammer and Fainsa seats. Seems like the term 'ironing board' seats have made it into the media.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Also in today's print issue, along with a diagram of the IC70, Grammer and Fainsa seats. Seems like the term 'ironing board' seats have made it into the media.

Highly likely the reporters got that off this forum via Googling about the seats?

There's probably a fair few reporters amongst the membership anyway.

 

[AlexNL]

It looks like TOCs are getting tired of taking all the blame, and are now pointing at the DfT.

 

[185143]

It looks like TOCs are getting tired of taking all the blame, and are now pointing at the DfT.

Good. Why should they take the blame for a problem they haven't caused?

 

[XCTurbostar]

I wondered how long it would be before this hit the media. Its just a fact nowerdays that seats in new trains wont be as comfortable as those they replace.

 

[Tracked]

Once they were complaining about not being able to sit down, now they're complaining about being able to sit down ...

 

[Failed Unit]

Once they were complaining about not being able to sit down, now they're complaining about being able to sit down ...

Don’t think we have much danger about sitting down either considering that in most cases the trains have less seats than the ones the replaces.

 

[JohnElliott]

Similar article in the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-claim-uncomfortable-ironing-board-seats-due/

Rail bosses have blamed fire safety and anti-vandalism rules after passengers complained new uncomfortable seats feel like "solid metal".

Govia Thameslink admits the seats on the new Class 700 trains are considerably firmer than older designs. The seats have limited padding, because cushioning is deemed as a fire hazard by the Department for Transport (DfT), according to the rail operator.

They also have to be made from graffiti-proof material, which the operator admitted has a "firm feel". The DfT admitted its guidelines have made for less comfortable seats.

Edit: Ah, I see AlexNL linked the same article upthread.

 

[Failed Unit]

It looks like TOCs are getting tired of taking all the blame, and are now pointing at the DfT.

Considering that you can’t believe anything GTR say.

I would ask the question when did the regulations last change? We have some decent seats on refurbished trains. Some of them done 5 years ago. I am for Ian W - in modern railways would say the regulations don’t mean uncomfortable. It is the TOC going for the cheapest seat that meets the regulation. Admittedly if the comfortable seat is even £5 per seat more expensive then that soon adds up in a lot of money.

But never believe anything GTR claim.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

LUL are just as bad - flop down into a seat on the JLE and you hit a fibreglass panel with a thin layer of moquette.

However the S stock and the good old 72TS are fine , especially the latter. "Proper" trains.

 

[Muzer]

LUL are just as bad - flop down into a seat on the JLE and you hit a fibreglass panel with a thin layer of moquette.

However the S stock and the good old 72TS are fine , especially the latter. "Proper" trains.

I find even Jubilee Line seats to be more comfortable than ironing boards. But TBH it's kind of OK if they're uncomfortable, since people rarely do journeys like Stanmore to Stratford end-to-end — I'd imagine the furthest is probably Stratford to West End, and even that I imagine is more likely to be via the Central line (correct me if I'm wrong, Stratford residents!).

On the other hand, there are a significant number of Brighton and Bedford to London passengers (EDIT: not to mention Brighton to Luton and Bedford to Gatwick, and various other cross-London connections I haven't even considered yet when you take into account the new timetable) who have to endure ironing boards for a much longer period...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I find even Jubilee Line seats to be more comfortable than ironing boards. But TBH it's kind of OK if they're uncomfortable, since people rarely do journeys like Stanmore to Stratford end-to-end — I'd imagine the furthest is probably Stratford to West End, and even that I imagine is more likely to be via the Central line (correct me if I'm wrong, Stratford residents!).

On the other hand, there are a significant number of Brighton and Bedford to London passengers who have to endure ironing boards for a much longer period...

Very fair point ....DfT got it so wrong with the 700's seating , otherwise excellent trains. Modern Railways , and in particular Ian Walmsley have been on the case for a very long time. Let us hope someone listens.

Can you imagine a brand new car having similar ergonomics ..?

 

[Failed Unit]

Very fair point ....DfT got it so wrong with the 700's seating , otherwise excellent trains. Modern Railways , and in particular Ian Walmsley have been on the case for a very long time. Let us hope someone listens.

Can you imagine a brand new car having similar ergonomics ..?

What amazes me the amount of people on here that defend them. Basically say we should stop complaining and accept them. I know we are stuck with them until the midlife refurbishment. But hopefully complaining will at least give us a decent chance they will be reseated.

New doesn’t aways mean worse. Look at the 153, 156 and some 158 refurbishments (which I believe comply with the regulations). You hear EMT users dislike the density but not the comfort.

 

[DanNCL]

The ironing board seats can be made more comfortable; take the seats on refurbished ScotRail 156s as an example of that.

 

[AlexNL]

I’ve been warning for months that this would become ‘a thing’ and that it would swamp the new trains bounce. And here it is. I’m told a fire compliant comfy seat is available for £100 more each. They wd each be paid for in a couple of journeys.

Source: Nigel Harris on Twitter

So there you have it. The difference between ironing boards and comfy seats on a 700 would come down to £100 per seat. A drop in the water when you look at the life expectancy of a railway seat.

 

[johnkingeu]

Funnily enough I find the seats on the 707s comfier. Which is of course ridiculous because they are exactly the same seats. I think it must be some kind of psychosomatic effect caused by the ultra austere colour scheme on the GTR units!

 

[paulravuslante]

No such comfort problems with Tombstone seats then?

 

[class387]

No such comfort problems with Tombstone seats then?

I assume you mean the Grammar seats in the GWR HSTs, which were criticized in the print edition for being mainly airline. I find them very comfortable though.

 

[paulravuslante]

I assume you mean the Grammar seats in the GWR HSTs, which were criticized in the print edition for being mainly airline. I find them very comfortable though.

I do mean those. I have no issues with them but have heard others on here bemoaning their height and describing them as tombstones.

 

[class387]

I do mean those. I have no issues with them but have heard others on here bemoaning their height and describing them as tombstones.

I'm pretty sure 'tombstone' is mainly used as a derogatory term for the seat. Grammer IC3000 is the actual name I think.

 

[PHILIPE]

There are several threads regarding seats with useful discusssion:-


https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/your-preferred-railway-seat-type.158076/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-future-of-seating-on-uk-rail-network.158062/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-train-seats-better-or-worse-in-the-past.157286/

Complaints all the time on GWR regarding the seats on Class 800s. their Twitter Feed cut and paste says they are "ergonomically designed" so have pointed out that that word refers to comfort and that statement is a falsehood..

 

[amcluesent]

I'm dreading 50 mins of agony in the Class 385 running Glasgow-Edinburgh

 

[Class 170101]

I find even Jubilee Line seats to be more comfortable than ironing boards. But TBH it's kind of OK if they're uncomfortable, since people rarely do journeys like Stanmore to Stratford end-to-end — I'd imagine the furthest is probably Stratford to West End, and even that I imagine is more likely to be via the Central line (correct me if I'm wrong, Stratford residents!).

I've haerd some people say they are going to Wembley (to watch Spurs) and they boarded at Stratford.

 

[Muzer]

I've haerd some people say they are going to Wembley (to watch Spurs) and they boarded at Stratford.

Hmm, I'd forgotten about Wembley. Cheers!

 

[AlexNL]

I'm dreading 50 mins of agony in the Class 385 running Glasgow-Edinburgh

If I recall correctly the ScotRail 385s have more padding: what's 1st class on GTR is Standard on ScotRail, what's standard class on an 800 is 1st on a 385.

Furthermore, ScotRail are now aiming to reduce travel time on E-G to 39 minutes when the new trains enter squadron service.

 

[al78]

Once they were complaining about not being able to sit down, now they're complaining about being able to sit down ...

Strawman. The complaint is not about being able to sit down, it is that the seats are uncomfortable when sat down. Normally when new products or stock are brought in, there is an expectation of improvement from the passengers perspective, not regression.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ironing board seats can be made more comfortable; take the seats on refurbished ScotRail 156s as an example of that.

ScotRail use a different base cushion. Northern will also be using it.

 

[yorksrob]

ScotRail use a different base cushion. Northern will also be using it.

I thought the public had decisively voted against the ironing board seats in the Northern seat roadshow !

 

[The Box Photter]

Being a long-term Thameslink victim, I never expected Pullman-style luxury and the olld 319 steats were rubbish. The Class 700 standard seat plumbs new depths of awfulness, as I ponted out to the FCC representatives at their exhibition of the mock-up unit. Clearly they weren't bothered because they knew they'd lost the franchise by then and were happy to throw Govia "under the bus".

You only have to look at the fact that the declassified 1st class at the rear of the train fills up first to understand how most passengers hate the seats. They're unforgiving, too close to the seat in front and if there's a porker sitting by the window, you can only get one arse cheek on the outside seat. Can someone explain why the fire regulations mean that the seat cushon and backrest can't have any padding? The furniture industry has been successfully making comfy sofas and chairs that comply with fire retardant regulations. If it's true that my backside is being numbed for the want of £100 per seat then we need to make the whole of DfT (including the ministers) ride between Brighton and Bedford continually until they agree to stump up the cash for a fleet wide replacement programme.

The old seats from the 700s can be recycled as replacement benches in the Houses of Parliament. That'll make sure they won't sleep though any debates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All they need is the ScotRail base foam. It really is hugely more comfortable.